Hello. I did keto this winter with great success. I wanted to do something to lose visceral fat, not damage my gut biome and to gain muscle at the same time. I also didn’t want to do a long term calorically restrictive diet since those seem to lower the metabolic rate. I chose to focus on more protein while limiting carbs to mostly cruciferous vegetables. I tried not to cut my calorie level although I probably did by cutting out the junk food. Anyway, after an initial weight loss of around 12 pounds(I know a lot of which was glycogen and water), I increased carbs slightly, and began to gain weight. At that time I was also doing a 24 hr intermittent fast on Mon, Wed, and Fri by skipping breakfast and lunch. On these days I would work out at about 5 pm for about an hour doing progressive body exercises and weight lifting. I think I gained about 10 pounds of muscle while losing about 2 inches around my waist. Anyway, after I stopped keto, I also stopped working out, but I continued trying to consume some MCT sources like goat yogurt and coconut milk(which I typically mix with some protein powder). After I stopped keto, I gained back about 8 pounds very quickly, most of which I attribute to glycogen and water weight, but then I started to lose weight again, and since then have lost about another 18 pounds, and even more around my waist. Now I am down to a size 34 pant. I feel most of this has been fat loss. I lost visible fat in my chin and butt, and I am sure elsewhere. Anyway, based on my success my wife wanted to try keto, but more vegetarian style (I know). After an initial weight loss of around 10 pounds, she has stalled. Test strips initially showed modest ketone levels, but now have dropped down to trace levels. I ate a more standard keto diet, but not a whole lot of fat - I did have a fat bomb I made with coconut oil, raw cacao powder, peanut butter and erythritol/monk fruit sweetener, and ate it before my workouts. Otherwise, it was limited to a yogurt and eggs and cheese in the morning, and a meat such as salmon or grass fed lamb for dinner with cruciferous vegetables - asparagus, brocolli, kale salad, etc. I usually had a protein smoothie made with unsweetened almond milk or later coconut milk, avocado, egg, and protein powder at least after my workouts. If I got too hungry on my non fast days, I would sometimes eat a nut mix for lunch or grass fed beef hotdogs, etc. My wife has a tough time getting into ketosis doing vegan keto. She has been using protein powders for most of her protein. She can’t have dairy because of allergies. She has added a little chicken to her salad from time to time. I talked her into making an MCT vinagrette salad dressing, but so far that hasn’t seemed to have helped. She has been trying for 3 weeks and is getting discouraged. I think she might quit. If she uses the usual toppings she likes on salad, such as cucumbers, tomato, radishes, etc even in small amounts it seems to kick her out of ketosis. She has been trying to limit carbs to less than 50 gr/day, but even with less than that she will have only trace ketones the next morning, and has just stopped losing any weight. My guess is she is insulin resistant, and have told her it may take a month to start burning fat, but we are approaching that without the results. Any suggestions?
Help for my wife trying vegan keto
Women’s bodies behave differently on keto, to some extent, because of their hormonal cycles, so there is that.
But women also tend to buy into the standard diet advice more, so they tend to be more afraid of replacing carbohydrate with fat (forgetting that it takes much less fat by weight to get the same number of calories). They also tend to believe the advice to “eat less, move more,” which can also hamper progress.
One key point to remember is that cutting carbohydrate is all about reducing insulin levels, since chronically elevated insulin damages the system (it also interferes with the reproductive hormones), and insulin responds most strongly to our carbohydrate intake, since carbohydrates are glucose molecules arranged in various ways. The other key point to remember is that fats contain, on average, over twice as many calories, but with a negligible effect on insulin level, making them the perfect replacement for the lost calories from carbohydrate.
Another factor is that the body adjusts to what we give it. If we cut our rations, the metabolic rate eventually goes down to match. Conversely, eating more food will cause the metabolic rate to rise. (This is all within broad limits, of course.) But the implication is that restricting caloric intake is self-defeating. Furthermore, reduced calories signals the body to go into “famine mode,” and in famine mode it will hang on to its fat store, in an attempt to get us through to more abundant times. In short, many people on these forums report that their fat loss actually didn’t begin until they started eating more, not less.
So as the mantra goes, “control carbs, prioritise protein, and fill in with fat.” How much we need to limit our carb intake will depend on our level of insulin-sensitivity/resistance. How much protein we need depends on our lean body mass, and how much fat we eat should be limited by our appetite (in other words, eat only when hungry, stop eating when no longer hungry, and don’t eat again until hungry again.)
ETA: Furthermore, strict vegan keto can be done, but it is very difficult and will require supplements, particularly with B-12, which is found only in meat. Better if the person can manage an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet, or even add some fish occasionally.
What about eggs? Vegan keto is doable, I mean, some people do it but it’s very hardcore, I for one probably never could do it and feel okay. I did vegetarian keto (ovo-lacto), it wasn’t too hard but I ate too much carbs (low enough for ketosis and fat adaptation for me but I got no benefits, no fat-loss, no more energy, nothing just fat adaptation and keto habits).
If she really can’t add even her vegs and stay in ketosis, that’s a problem. She can’t just skip everything, she needs things to eat. How much fat she is eating?
I never measured my ketones and I know little about that… But does she needs specifically keto? Did she ever do simple low-carb? Suddenly very strongly plant-based keto sounds pretty hardcore to me. I personally went from almost vegetarian (meat a few times a year) HCHF to LCHF to keto (I actually avoided meat there as my protein was quite high without that), these were drastic enough steps for me. I LOVED my low-carb, I just needed to go lower eventually. (And then even lower and swapped almost all my plants to meat as extreme low-carb required that. But it’s me and I could survive on high-carb too, just not so well.)
3 weeks is a very short time. Especially if one is female and/or have less to lose, patience is often very much needed (but sometimes very heavy men need it too, keto can’t guarantee quick fat-loss even for them)…
For some of us, fat adaptation brings more benefits, not just ketosis. Mere ketosis was pretty much like low-carb to me.
But 50g carbs easily may be too much for ketosis.
First problem is caring about ketone levels, don’t! Is she tracking what she eats other than carbs? Most likely just eating too much, OR eating a Vegan diet is spooking her system and halting fat loss, Vegan diets are nutrient deficient diets, the body doesn’t appreciate that, and when it’s not getting what it needs it’s very reluctant to give up it’s fat stores which it’s counting on to stay alive.
It doesn’t take a month to start burning fat, it takes a day of eating less than you burn. Won’t be noticeable that fast, but that’s how it works. If she’s not tracking with something like Crononmeter, then it’s just random guesses.
Thanks for the replies.
“What about eggs? … How much fat she is eating?” She is eating some eggs… I think she has given up on the vegan thing, and is just trying to basically do vegetarian. She has lots of inflammation and feels like when she eats meat it makes it worse. She is really not eating much fat. She is blending an avocado in with her protein smoothie, which is something I did. I think she has a fatty liver, and her blood results have a few flags for liver trouble. Years ago she seemed to have gall stones, and did an olive oil purge, which seemed to work despite the naysayers that say it’s fake. However, from time to time if she eats fatty things she seems to get a pain in her side which reminds her of her gallbladder. She doesn’t seem to tolerate eating lots of saturated fat too well. Other fats seem less troublesome for her although she doesn’t like fried foods dripping in oil. MCTs fortunately don’t seem to bother her too much, and I feel she needs to focus on those to get the benefits of the ketones.
Years ago she did lose significant weight on Weight Watchers, but the second she stopped, it began coming back on. I really believe in keto, and feel that it is the “missing winter aspect” of our diet. That our bodies are made to cycle on. High carbs forever stick us in the “fall, fat building mode”, so like you I think doing the vegan keto thing will be very hard. All the plant foods tend to put us in carbohydrate, higher insulin fat building mode like it is perpetual fall time. But I am trying to be supportive.
“I ate too much carbs (low enough for ketosis and fat adaptation for me but I got no benefits, no fat-loss, no more energy, nothing just fat adaptation and keto habits).” She says she has no energy, so that indicates to me that she is not burming any fat for ketones. So it seems to me that she will have to lower the 50 Gr carb limit. That seems too high for her. She got one of those intelligent scales and it says she has low protein levels. I do fairly strenuous work. She mostly sits all day, so maybe I can just get away with more carbs…but by the end I was at low ketone levels.
I don’t think she is eating too much. I feel she is not eating enough, and her body is already lowering her metabolism… but that is my guess. It seems like her body is trying to adjust to the low carbs she is eating. She has not been really closely tracking anything though. She just kind of adds up carbs as she goes along. Maybe I should suggest she use an app or someting like that to add up the carbs she is eating, and maybe make meal suggestions.
I totally hate those things, it’s fine. It’s quite possible (for me, way too easy) to eat tons of fat without using ANY added fat.
But I am not sensitive and if I eat 100+ g saturated fat, it’s fine.
Oh it’s even harder than I thought if she has problems with many keto items 
I hope you can find the right method, I have some tips and experience regarding eating keto but without any health problems keeping one from eating many things. Like saturated fat. I can’t avoid it if I want, it’s in everything I eat, usually in significant amount.
I don’t have much energy on any woe but in her case, it’s easily possible she isn’t in ketosis most of the time. 50g carbs is just too much for most of us. Our personal limit is quite individual, I could go over 40g and get into ketosis while being mostly inactive but of course, exercise tends to give us a bigger wriggle room if the other factors are the same.
That’s is a concern.
Maybe she should track for some days, not just carbs but everything. When I start a very new woe, I always track as I can’t guess these things and my temporarily confused body may be okay with definitely off macros. Seeing her protein and fat intake may prove to be very informative and helpful to point out what to focus on…
My concern is that this good husband is the one asking the questions. Sounds like his good wife isn’t truly ready. We’ve all been there.
No one was able to convince me. (Even with his own miraculous results right in front of me.) in fact, trying to talk me into keto made me eat a Twinkie. Lol.
We each have our own AHA moment… a trigger of some sort that flips our mental switch and we are ALL IN. Mine was a number on the scale and health spiraling downward.
Once the missus is personally committed, her hubby’s insight will be invaluable.
Lastly, I may be 100% wrong bout this! Don’t give up 0n your wife. Just consider that your physical transformation is worth a million words.
Good on you for trying to help your wife, and for also getting your own positive health results.
I think finding the correct storyteller can help. A woman’s voice that understands female physiology.
Dr. Jaime Seeman — Doctor Fit & Fabulous, was an acceptable expert for Mrs. Bear, for example. Podcast episodes were a help. There are plenty of great spokespeople. DietDoctor.com was another good source.
https://www.doctorfitandfabulous.com/about-1
https://www.doctorfitandfabulous.com/podcastsproductsandmedia
I had my own health concerns I have been working on, and my weight was kind of the last stage. Before that it was my blood pressure, although keto probably helped with that too. I finally got it down to 110/70 and I started over a year ago in the high 140s/90s after being on a powerful antibiotic for a week. That really messed up my digestion for awhile, and I came to attribute my high blood pressure to killing off my bacteriodes microbiome which is a genus which makes vitamin K2. Unfortunately, you can’t seem to get any Bacteriodes in a supplement so I had to use Bacillus subtilis, and I also supplemented with vitamin K2.
I still had too much visceral fat though, and that is where Keto came in. I didn’t try to talk my wife into doing it at all. In fact she tried keto Dr Berg style before I did, and I poopooed his recommendations of high saturated fat. She quickly decided she didn’t like all the saturated fat, and quit. I came about it on my own after studying how to lose visceral fat and gain muscle at the same time while not starving my gut microbiome. A higher protein keto plan was my solution, so I asked her about what she had tried eating on keto to see if I could adapt any of it. I ended up just doing my own thing, and loved the results. I felt great - no keto flu - very regular movements - and the weight just began to fall off. But, I was exercising too.
I know all too well, my wife will resist anything I try to talk her into… No, it was her idea to try again. She just announced it. But, I want her to succeed, and am trying to be supportive. I see her using my benchmarks, like 50 gr net carbs per day, and it’s not working for her, so my conclusion is she will have to have less carbs to go into ketosis. It only worked the first few days for her. Yeah, if she did an exercise program, it might be different. When I was doing keto though, I basically sat all day, except the 3 days/wk I worked out.
This path made me realize how bad the American food system is, and even how it has purposefully tried to hook us on processed foods. For instance did you know that in the 80s two large tobacco companies bought food companies when the government began to crack down on big tobacco? RJ Reynolds bought Nabisco and, Altria bought Kraft. Together, they controlled a majority of the processed food labels for many years, and began selling pleasure or dopamine hits as happiness. So, we have ended up with sugar to give that dopamine hit in virtually all processed foods, and they took up the low fat mantra… And we even have a government dietary guideline which recommends we get our fats from more polyunsaturated fats from… wait for it… “packaged foods.”
The system has just become backwards from anything healthful, so I just decided I need to change the way I do things… permanently… and hope some of that rubs off on my wife. I remember the days when my dad swore off saturated fats… he bought the hype. So he wouldn’t use coconut oil. I now believe that MCTs, however, are quite healthful saturated fats, as they typically just immediately get turned into ketones which act as signalling molecules to our fat mitochondria, and help us burn more fat. This is one reason why I switched to goat yogurt… it has 100% more MCTs than cow yogurt… assuming of course you eat the whole milk varieties. But my wife can’t have dairy. She has always been allergic. That leaves coconut oil and MCT oil as the main sources for her. In fact most of the longest lived people in the world eat goat or sheep dairy. I am just trying to connect with others that have worked through similar issues to see what works, so thanks.
Wow. She is def fit…and fabulous. She sounds like she started about where my wife is. Yeah, I think other women who have been where she is at, and can describe what they did will help.
I really empathise with you.
But could i gently ask, because I have emerging eyesight issues, that you use paragraphs/spacing going forward?
No biggy if you can’t; I’m not pedantic.
I’m not trying to be awkward friend, it’s just easier for me to visually digest that way.
Keto Woman podcast #37, is by a female surgeon, T1D, who has been keto for a long time. You might want to give her a listen.
Also a quick search for vegan on these forums brings up all kinds of vegan information.
Thanks for the details. Knowing your wife is the first step toward helping her. Smart man.
Not surprised she’ll need a lower threshold of carbs.
It is actually a cliche for men to make a small change and reap big rewards, whist us gals follow the strictest protocol and lose a fraction of the weight, in twice as much time.
However…. Slow and steady wins the race.
Good for you both!
I can’t eat dairy. Keto is definitely doable without dairy, but your wife is really going to need to get protein in there. She might be able to tolerate fish and chicken along with her eggs. Whole foods are always better than powders. Since she is having gallbladder issues, I would suggest she try slowly increasing her fats over time so her gallbladder can ramp up. I read once (unfortunately, I don’t remember where) that one of the reasons we can develop gallbladder sludge/stones is because when we eat low fat, we don’t need to use as much bile and it gets sludgey from hanging out in the gallbladder. The way to keep a gallbladder healthy is to use it.
All the women on my mom’s side of the family had their gallbladders removed in their mid 60s. I’m in my mid 50s. I am very curious to see what happens with me and my gallbladder when I am in my 60s. I’m hoping that the fact that I give my gallbladder daily workouts will keep me from following in the footsteps of my relatives.
Three weeks is a very short time. It takes almost two months to get fat adapted. Until then, energy levels do tend to be lower, muscles feel like lead. No enough calories and not enough fat will definitely keep her energy levels low. Not enough salt can also cause that low energy feeling. Also, many people find that there is healing that needs to happen before the weight loss begins. There could be something like that going on with your wife.
Oh, actually, another thought: You don’t mention your ages. If your wife is in her 40s or 50s, changing hormones also wreak havoc with weight loss, even on keto. She may just have to be patient, allow some healing to occur, and keto on.
What saturated fats are you talking about?
I didn’t talk about her thyroid issue. I think that is probably a large part of her health issues. She has been on thyroid for over 20 years. But she seems to have lots of auto-immune issues. Unfortunately, I think her milk allergy is involved here, because she has been using some butter to cook vegetables. She is allergic to milk protein though, so that little bit of protein in the butter seems to be enough to set off auto-immune issues for her - and Hashimoto’s is an auto-immune condition. I think she would be OK on Ghee, so I think I will have to buy that for her - I do most of the grocery shopping. She has begun using more coconut oil lately.
I told her most women seem to have to cut to about 25 gr of carbs to get into ketosis based on you’alls responses. She decided to cut her eating to about once per day, and has gone into moderate ketosis. However, yesterday when I came home she looked flushed, and said she felt light-headed. I told her she was experiencing keto flu, and needed to drink some water and take some minerals. She did that and went and laid down, but before I knew it, she was up and went to visit some neighbors. When she came back she said she was feeling better.
[quote=“VirginiaEdie, post:14, topic:115467, full:true”]
I can’t eat dairy. Keto is definitely doable without dairy, but your wife is really going to need to get protein in there. She might be able to tolerate fish and chicken along with her eggs. Whole foods are always better than powders. Since she is having gallbladder issues, I would suggest she try slowly increasing her fats over time so her gallbladder can ramp up. I read once (unfortunately, I don’t remember where) that one of the reasons we can develop gallbladder sludge/stones is because when we eat low fat, we don’t need to use as much bile and it gets sludgey from hanging out in the gallbladder. The way to keep a gallbladder healthy is to use it.[/quote]
Yep. If the body doesn’t send out any cholecystokinin, the gall bladder doesn’t contract, and cholesterol tends to build up and make gall stones. This probably happened to her when she was doing Weight Watchers because it is very fat restrictive. I think your advice to slowly ramp up the fats is a good way to address this issue. Just one more reason low fat diets probably aren’t the most healthy for the body.
Do you have problems with butter too? Is your dairy issue an allergy? I stopped drinking milk years ago because of lactose intolerance, but continue to use cottage cheese, cheddar cheese, yogurt(although I have switched to goat yogurt), and butter. So, I have lots of butter in the fridge I bought a good while back when it was much cheaper. I think she is realizing it is an issue for her though, so I am going to get some ghee for her. Do you use that?
[quote]
Three weeks is a very short time. It takes almost two months to get fat adapted. Until then, energy levels do tend to be lower, muscles feel like lead. No enough calories and not enough fat will definitely keep her energy levels low. Not enough salt can also cause that low energy feeling. Also, many people find that there is healing that needs to happen before the weight loss begins. There could be something like that going on with your wife.
Oh, actually, another thought: You don’t mention your ages. If your wife is in her 40s or 50s, changing hormones also wreak havoc with weight loss, even on keto. She may just have to be patient, allow some healing to occur, and keto on.[/quote]
The salt thing is going to be a switch for her as she has been used to keeping salt low to keep her fluid retention low, but I think over more time she will def need more salt.
She doesn’t generally like seafood but she will eat tuna salad, and has bought some avocado mayonnaise to make it, to eat with her salads. I am all for that, and have been trying to convince her to drop her cheap soybean oil mayonnaise habits for some time. She is not going to be able to have the usual grapes mixed in though. She will also eat salmon burgers, but will have to skip the bread though. However, the salmon and egg mix would be a great source of protein. And I can stick mine on whole wheat bread… 
, although I probably shouldn’t to be more supportive. That is probably it for the seafood she will eat, but both are actually pretty good. I buy regular canned water-packed yellowfin tuna. She does sometimes use fish oil, but years ago, I began using krill oil, and recently have added calamari oil to my regimen. This virtually eliminates the mercury issue, and I feel is much less processed and more digestible. I also add phosphatidylcholine for better brain efficacy. I eat much more seafood than she does though.
My wife is going into menopause, so any extra advice about that is appreciated.
Well, well, well… going into menopause.?
All bets are off.
Actually… Same identical advice, but with an extra heaping of patience. But keto might help her get through it easier. I came late to keto; past menopause.
But I have to think that some symptoms might have benefited from keto.
Dairy gives me painful joint inflammation, especially my lower back and it also gives me painful, itchy bumps on my scalp and back. I can’t tolerate any dairy including butter and ghee.
Scaperdude mate.
There’s a load of keto recipes on-line, including here, and our amateur (that’s me!) efforts, and other’s professional (that’s not me! 
) , will give plenty of ideas for meals and nutrition whilst still keeping carbs low.
Vegan is hard. Would she be able to eat fish like mackerel or salmon? That would fill the gap…
Good luck mate.
Sorry, I meant to add there…without the meat aspect of the recipes.
The fact is though, it is hard to get all amino acids without some form of meat…