Have we got it wrong about ratios of fat for weight loss?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #41

What we are trying to promote is a more nuanced understanding of how the types of food eaten determine whether food will be stored or metabolized, depending on insulin level. (Insulin is the body’s fat-storage hormone, plus it has other deleterious effects on the body, relating to inflammation and the suppression of anti-oxidants.)

It has also been shown that the body matches its energy expenditure to its intake, so eating at a caloric deficit causes the basal metabolic rate to go down, and prevents excess stored fat from being metabolized, even if carbohydrate intake is low enough not to increase insulin secretion. By contrast, eating a sufficient amount of food (as, for example, by eating to satiety) encourages the body to raise its metabolic rate and to mobilize excess fat for metabolism (in the context of low carbohydrate, of course).

Eating to satiety rather than to a pre-determined caloric level encourages the bodily mechanisms to adjust appetite to a level that permits the metabolism of both food intake and also excess stored fat (again, assuming carbohydrate is kept low).

This is the rationale for a well-formulated ketogenic diet. Does it make sense to you?

(Raj Seth) #42

We have only to look at non-industrialized diets, be it animals in the wild, or humans pre-agriculture. No obesity - Darwinian method - obese creatures get eaten. If the body is allowed to function, it will eliminate obesity by its own evolutionarily developed methods

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #43

That was true of me when my carbohydrate intake was high—does “Just one more wafer-thin mint” ring a bell?

On the other hand, it is not true of me on a low-carbohydrate, high-fat/ketogenic diet. My satiety signaling causes me to lose interest in food before my stomach is anywhere near full. Because there is still room in the stomach, it is possible to eat in spite of satiation, but the signal is pretty powerful, and very hard to ignore. The participants in overfeeding studies, where the goal was to force them to gain weight, were pretty miserable; apparently almost as miserable as the subjects in the starvation experiments.

("Don't call it calories, call it food") #44

This logic assumes obesity is an inherited trait, rather than an acquired one, and I am not sure I agree with that assumption.

Edit: sorry now I see what you are saying! You are saying that individuals with the ability to lose weight procreate at higher rates…

(Raj Seth) #45

I will add one more anecdotal piece of ‘evidence’
Just try, really just try the Feldman Protocol. But do it well, and with precision, and really really try to hit that 5,500 kCals with <20 gm carbs for 3 days running.

I did.

I never thought, in my whole life, that I could ever be that disgusted with food, EVER!! I could hardly wait till 6pm on the third day when I could stop eating - FINALLY!! I fasted for 3-4 days just to get over the absolute revulsion at the thought of eating.

This experience seems universal - I complained to Dave at Ketofest, and he was “I know, right?” People think the license to eat ad libitum and beyond for 3 days (in the name of science) is a god send - little do they realize it is a curse!!

I assure you, I did not get to 300lbs by being a squeamish eater. :grin:

(shane ) #46

Yeah, and prior to agriculture you had to WORK for your calories. Food didn’t just let you eat. You had to hunt it or gather it and process it. You couldn’t order while sitting on your butt.

(shane ) #47

Yeah that makes sense to me.

Not going to argue that.

Does this make sense, how can a person know they are eating in the ballpark if they have never tracked anything or for that matter don’t even know what a portion size looks like?

How do they know they are under 20 grams of carbs?

What are they tracking? Macros?

Carbs 4 calories per gram
Protein 4 calories per gram
Fat 9 calories per gram.
See how that last one has over twice the caloric value as the others. If people don’t understand that, maybe they should if they are not seeing the weight loss they are expecting.

(Dan) #48

It works for me… I don’t think of things in percentages or ratios… But rather in gram quantities… 20 grams or less of carbs, target the amount of protein (in grams) as appropriate for you, as much fat as needed for fuel/satiety.

(Raj Seth) #49

Me 2. I am a carb Nazi - nearly Carnivore (can’t resist a slice of tomato & onion on the 10oz high fat burger, or home made Creamed spinach at 800kCals/serving w/ 10-15g carbs)
I don’t eat lean meat (breast of fowl), and eat fatty animal products, bacon, & pork rinds with liverwurst and goose liver pate, as often as I can. First time I am enjoying minding my waist more than wasting my mind

(Laurie) #50

Interesting thread! But I will respond to the original post only.

The first time I tried low carb, I lost weight eating unlimited protein and fat. But apparently that only works once; if you go off the diet and return to it, the weight won’t come off as easily. Later on I did some research and found out how much protein and fat would be “enough” for me (I’m female, 5’6").

I don’t know whether everyone already knows the number of calories in macros. Protein has 4 calories per gram, carbs also have 4 calories per gram, and fat has 9 calories per gram–which is just over twice as much as protein or carbs.

So looking at the left side of the graph, their numbers translate to 90 grams of protein, 30 grams of carbs, and 92 grams of fat. Personally I prefer a bit less protein, a bit less carb, and perhaps a bit more fat; my calorie intake is still about the same (1300 calories or a bit less).

So yes, some people can lose weight on more protein and fat than they “need,” but others might not. Trying and tweaking the left side of the graph might be worthwhile.

I also found that the more I ate, the hungrier I got. When I realized that 70 grams of protein a day looked something like 3 eggs, half a can of salmon, one burger patty with cheese, and maybe a few pork rinds, I was afraid I’d never get used to eating so little. But really, it’s had the opposite effect and I don’t feel hungry unless I should feel hungry, e.g., if I’ve missed a meal.

I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to eat as shown in the Maintenance column. I’m afraid that eating 60 carbs a day will make me too hungry, and I don’t know how eating 1.5 times the fat I’m eating now will affect me either. But we’ll see.

By the way, eating less is also way cheaper! Good luck.

#51

I think this is my issue.
I never actually feel ‘sated’.
I can feel physically full, but always think that I could fit in just a wee bit more. And often I do.

I am coming to believe that leptin resistance is as much an issue as insulin resistance in some individuals, and I believe I am one of them.

I think I will have to train myself to re-interpret feelings of hunger in a positive light - “I am burning fat!!!” - rather than in a negative light - “I am going to starve to death!!” .
Hopefully this will go towards resetting my leptin sensitivity as well as my insulin looks to have been reset by eating low carb.

#52

@Happyheart, what a wonderful achievement!!! Go you!!
I dont know that we are doing anything different to be honest - we are just responding to a way of eating in our own individual manner.
I do wish my experience was like yours, but it isnt.
I am really committed to finding the key to lower body fat for me, because everything else is working well.

As @Rajseth and others have hinted, it may have something to do with leptin resistance.
Now, if anyone has the magic key to unlocking that mystery please share!!

#53

Ummm…maybe that is it :thinking::thinking:
I am currently undergoing treatment for severe PTSD related to my many years as a paramedic.
it is pretty stressful and draining emotionally.
Maybe at the end of the process I too will have a happy heart and the lower cortisol levels will release that fat!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #54

Guess it depends on whether you’re losing your waist or losing your mind! :grin:

#55

This here - Dr Fung is bloody brilliant!!
https://idmprogram.com/who-needs-to-avoid-fat-bombs-and-bpc/

#56

That sounds … not fun at all. :nauseated_face:

(Wendy) #57

Hopefully that will help!
Not that I haven’t had my share of stress but things are a bit easier now.
I hope you have a chance to really recover!

#58

The Westman quote: “If your body is HF your diet only needs to be LC” is very sensible, thanks!

Another tricky thing is that for females, we naturally have higher fat levels for health. For midlife and older females, up to 30% may well be healthy - but this culture tends to push either the Emaciated Model or the bulked Ms. Universe bodybuilder as ideals. For those females who are trying to lose most all belly fat, it may be a rude awakening that the body may well want to keep some!

Stress and cortisol are another huge topic. High cortisol definitely interferes with fat burning - and then if one adds extra dollops of dietary fat, it multiplies the fat rather than feeds the muscles.

Though I take 1-2 tblsp of coconut oil daily in my morning fatty coffee because I love the way it nourishes my brains and BDNF - I only eat fat in avocado or moderate servings of cheese, or use fat for cooking otherwise.

Apparently that’s what we’re supposed to do after being 100% fat-adapted, beyond the earliest induction period of the first two-six weeks.

However, when I was a newbie working my way to fat adaptation to the 100% point, I snacked on spoonfuls of fat, and ate sides of butter w/ dinner :smiley: It got me over the “hump” so to speak, and I suffered minimal discomforts in my adaptation journey. But nowadays, my enhanced physiology prefers to transform my own body fat! (With the help of Ginger supplementation - Ginger is an adaptogenic herb and it reduces cortisol. I was taking around 2-3 grams per day for a few months, and am now down to 500mg - 1g per day for a sort of maintenance).

(Terence Dean) #59

Hippopotami are a little tubby. :hippopotamus: :man_shrugging: :rofl:

(Doug) #60

:smile: Rajseth, oh how true that is… :neutral_face: