Has anyone gotten NAD tested?

(Alex K Chen) #1

Eg by jInfiniti. Do you notice increases after ketosis?

(Joey) #2

Nope. Not easy to figure out what NAD is or stands for, either.

These folks claim a trademark on it and state that they’re the only commercially available source of this so-called NAD test…

Before I’d get a test (or buy any of their many products) I’d want a lot more info as to why it’s my lucky day to come across these folks. :thinking:

(Bob M) #3

Speaking as an intellectual property attorney, their chance of getting NAD trademarked in the US Patent Office should be zero. You can’t have a trademark on something that describes a known item. You couldn’t get a trademark on the name “bike” for instance.

(Joey) #4

Makes good sense (from what little I understand about patents/trademarks as a layman), but while I know what a bike is, I’m still totally ignorant as to what a NAD is. Still unclear as to whether I’d care to ride one.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

NAD+ is a free radical, in other words, a molecule missing an electron. The letters “NAD” stand for " Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide, if I worked PubChem right, and NADH is apparently the dihydro- version. They are chemicals involved in certain metabolic pathways.

Bob should probably know, because I’m sure Peter Hyperlipid has gone into NAD+ and NADH+ in one of his many posts on biochemistry. (I love Peter, but he gets far too abstruse for me, most of the time.)

P,S,—I thought the Bike Company was, in fact, able to trademark “Bike” as the name of a brand of jockstrap. Apparently they invented the jockstrap to provide support to bicycle jockeys (messengers) riding on Boston’s cobbled streets in the late 1800’s. And by the way, the word “jock” as applied to athletes comes from the fact that so many of them adopted the jockstrap as part of their athletic gear. (I’m sure you all wanted to know that, right? . . . Right? . . . RIGHT? :grin:)

#6

Never had my levels tested, never even seen that test. But I can say there’s no doubt I had crazy energy for hours after injecting it a couple times a week!

(Bob M) #7

NAD is discussed also at Brad Marshall’s place:

https://fireinabottle.net/?s=nad

But to be honest, I don’t go to Brad’s or Peter’s (Hyperlipid) sites anymore. I “lost” 2 years due to The Croissant Diet. That is, it took me 2 years to lose the weight I gained thinking that saturated fat (+ starches sometimes) would cause me to be less hungry.

These theories might work on a fat cell level or in mice, but I can’t find any evidence they work in me. It would help if I got hungrier eating something that’s high in PUFA or got less hungry eating saturated fat, but the main (only?) thing that seems to affect my hunger is protein. Higher protein = less hunger for me. And protein is nowhere to be found in these theories.

(I should note that the triple probiotic I was taking and/or the boron – which increases testosterone supposedly, though I’ve not tested that – could also decrease hunger. Or at least when I was taking them, I had less hunger. But I can’t definitively say it was these, as I was also eating higher protein, lower fat meals.)

(Joey) #8

Thanks :tm:
SomeGuy :copyright:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

I’m pretty sure you’re one of the outliers on that graph of daily nitrogen loss. You need a lot more protein than most folks to be happy, and the RDA isn’t going to be nearly enough for you. If Raubenheimer and Simpson are correct, we all have an instinct for getting enough protein, so it makes sense that you in particular re not going to be satiated at a protein level intended for those of us who need less.

In theory, protein should be energy neutral, since it’s not used for fuel, under normal circumstances. That’s why they focus on fat, I guess. But I suspect that they are all assuming, whether they realise it or not, that people are getting the protein they need before filling up on fat. Or something like that, anyway.

P.S.—@ctviggen Isn’t boron toxic? I know it’s okay for topical use (there’s an eyewash made from it), but I thought ingesting it had very bad effects.

(Bob M) #10

I wondered if they were the protein leverage people, and they are:

I think there’s some truth to this theory, but I don’t think it prevents (all) obesity. For instance, I eat beef roasts all the time, since they tend to be on sale. They’re lean, and you can get a good 100 grams or so per pound of protein, which is what I eat at a meal. If I ate 2 pounds of that in one day, that’d be plenty of protein, and I wouldn’t be hungry.

But if you gave me ice cream, say in an ice cream cake for a birthday, I’m 100% sure I’d have two pieces and want a third.

So, I think protein helps, but I’m not sure it cures all obesity.

I’ve been thinking about this, since we’re going to be making more lunches (and possibly snacks) for our kids (right now, the crappy school lunches are free). It can be a challenge to get higher protein for the things they like. Anything sweet, for instance. I can make a reduced sugar chocolate torte or coconut macaroon, but there’s no protein there.

I’m taking 10mg boron/day, about 4 days per week. According this this, it should be okay:

image

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-HealthProfessional/#h4

Of course, I could be getting a higher load due to food…but that’s basically impossible to figure out.

I started taking it when there was a lady on a podcast discussing testosterone for men. She was mainly discussing shots, but she also said boron works. I think she had recommended something like 30mg/day, but the studies I’ve seen used 10mg.

I should also note that there are people on the r/saturatedfat Reddit that say they have experienced benefits from eating saturated fat + “starch”. But I’ve seen way too many people who gained weight eating saturated fat + starch. If it’s relevant, it’s only relevant to some people, for reasons (genetics?) I don’t understand.

(Michael) #11

I bought and take a boron supplement as a pill. Many others do as well. Boron helps with shbg and is not found in animal products, so I supplement as a carnivore.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #12

“Shbg”? Is that a typo?

(Michael) #13

Sex- hormone binding globulin

(Bob M) #14

That is one impressive paper. I mean, just check out this figure, which they created:

image
image.jpg737Ă—773 173 KB

image

Ah, what?

Very impressive.

Reading that, it makes me realize how little we (and particularly me) know about the body. For instance, I knew there was a connection between boron and Vitamin D, but they say in the paper that boron increases Vitamin D3 levels, via half life and bioavailability. And that nearly incomprehensible paragraph above goes into more detail.

How little I know.

#15

But hunger/satiation is sometimes not closely correlated to energy intake. My body surely used up the carbs I ate but I still got hungry after a bunch of carbs… I have this with other macros too, getting much energy from something isn’t necessarily enough to satisfy our hunger with it. Or not immediately, I suspect there is a difference if I wait and let my body actually get out the energy. (Carbs still fare badly there or did in the past.)

Did you try that? 200g protein with little fat and you aren’t hungry? I am, I need energy too. (Or maybe I should experiment with it as until lately I couldn’t go that high protein without eating 200g fat in the process as well. But it seems this far that I do need my fat too. And it’s one day or two. Longer term I clearly would miss the energy.)

But 3 slices are so little, isn’t it? Never saw an ice cream cake but normal ice cream is watery, low-cal. I ate 20 slices of cake last time I faced various cakes at a competition. And it was after my daily keto food when I did that (not immediately but I probably could have done that too) :slight_smile:
But yep, carbs are crazy.
What about fat? Did you try very high-fat? (Sorry, maybe you mentioned it before somewhere somewhen but my memory isn’t perfect.) With lowish protein, not too little but barely adequate or something. I had such a day this week so it’s not impossible as I thought but probably sticky and couldn’t work for multiple days. I will try later.

My sweets are mostly eggs. Not difficult to get it high-protein. Proper cake always was sponge cake for me and I loved the eggy filling best. It was quite fatty though, good thing a kid needs fat and energy galore.
Some popular cakes here has a quark layer. Many have a thick, fluffy, very easy to eat sweet egg white layer too - maybe not to best to travel with to the school but it depends… And nuts are very often used as part of the flour. Plenty of good ways to add more protein.
I often bake cake for my SO for breakfast (he eats at his workplace and if I leave him be, he just eats oatmeal every morning, well oats have protein too… and on running days, peanuts only until 3pm, it can’t be good), they have eggs, sometimes poppy seeds, there is protein there. His poppy seed cake breakfast has 37g protein and 1000 kcal. Not much protein in my eyes (and it’s one of his more protein rich options) but he apparently needs less than me.

(Bob M) #16

I commonly eat 100+ grams of protein for lunch, and aren’t hungry for 7+ hours. Many times, if my family was not eating, I’d skip dinner.

Every time I’ve tried high fat, I’ve gained weight. Butter, in particular, appears to be fattening for me. No satiety, and makes things taste good so I eat more.

The ice cream “cake” we get here is very high calorie. Very dense ice cream, usually two layers, separated by a crumbly section. You can get any of these flavors:

https://www.ferrisacrescreamery.com/menu.html

Think something like this, only with much better, denser ice cream layers:

image

Not only can I EASILY eat two large pieces of this, but what happens is that about 30 minutes or so later, I’ll be hungry. My blood sugar will go low, and I’ll get hungry, even though I’ve probably eaten many hundreds of calories.

So, I only eat these for holidays or birthdays.

(Joey) #17

I’ll join the club. The more I learn, the more humbled I become as to how little I know.

Let’s hear a cheer for … Team Ignorance…
Or better yet, Go-NADs! :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

#18

Wow. Well my SO does the same with a bunch of carbs for breakfast…
If I eat 100+ g of protein, I still get hungry in 1-4 hours except if my fat intake is high enough for a proper OMAD meal. But below 130g protein, it’s almost a given I will get hungry again, that is my safe lower limit.

Nice pic, okay, that’s a big slice. No idea about the calories though and they matter a lot to me. Oh I would be hungry right away even if I ate a pound of fatty meat just before, carbs are scary. (Or at least I did that before, I am not sure now and won’t do carby experiments until June I hope.)
Many hundreds of calories isn’t enough for me either unless the carbs are very low and the fat/protein ratio is right. Some of us need bigger meals and the carbs may mess it up epically.

Ice cream cakes seem perfect to do carnivore (but it must be very normal in a more relaxed keto style) so I never will get tempted by a normal one for sure… :smiley: I have my bread type things and crunchy biscuits on my very off days to cause problems and enjoyment… But I am working on my carni biscuits, they are pretty neat at this point, I just don’t always want to use up a dozen of egg yolks and lots of cheese.
Still, they are different. And I bake bread at least once every week… Actually, that helps, I get slowly desensitized. (And it’s eggless so I don’t even like it much. An egg makes it WAY better IMO. Or two. Or a dozen. I am serious, I tried it so.)

(B Creighton) #19

Was this IV? I tried NMN(capsules) for about 3 months, and didn’t really notice any change…It’s supposed to help boost NAD… how about your memory? Did it improve any?

#20

No, Sub-Q injectable. Made a very noticeable increase in energy for hours after that. With NMN you’re relying on your body to convert, and even when I was taking NAD+ capssule both normal and the liposomal ones I never noticed anything like when I was injecting it. Downside was it wasn’t cheap! I almost though about having my doc send me some more or trying to self source, I really like that stuff, plus the whole longevity thing is nice. But that crap was costing me more than my HGH.