Going from Keto to a Fast and issues

fasting
(Sophie Wu) #1

Hi all,

I’ve been doing keto for almost 60 days now and I’ve been consistently in keto for that time frame. Yesterday I ate maybe around 600 - 700 calories of food for the entire day and then did an hour of a hot pilates class at night. I didn’t feel particularly hungry after the class at all so I didn’t eat anything. I went to sleep at around 12am and the sleep was terrible, but I was oddly refreshed and awake at 6am. Anyhow, the first thing that got to me after waking up were palpitations and dizziness.

So I didn’t know that that was possible because… Well, I’m already in keto! Isn’t my body supposed to be feeling okay while burning the fat even with no food… Because I’ve still got fat in me? I feel like I am super uneducated and naive in this area.

So I just kinda want to know more about keto and fasting and what I should avoid and can expect. I also took psyllium husk today, feel very brain foggy and dizzy afterwards too. But I thought psyllium husk was okay for keto?

#2

A couple of quick thoughts here.

First, some may disagree with me, but I don’t view being in “ketosis” based on the results of a test strip or similar and being “fat adapted” as being one and the same. If you are not easily transitioning in and out of a fast , especially a short one, my guess is that you are not yet fully fat adapted. My suggestion to you from my experience would be to give Keto some additional time to work before you try intentionally fasting. And then, start by simply skipping a meal here or there first and see how you adjust to that. Once it becomes easy to skip a meal on a regular basis, then you can begin the traditional time restricted eating common with intermittant fasting 16/8, 18/6, etc.

Second, 600-700 calories is probably not anywhere near enough to keep you going on a regular day, let alone before a fast of any length. The concept of “Feast then Fast” worked well for me when I was getting in to fasting.

Lastly, watch your electrolyte intake. Make sure you are getting enough salt in your diet when you are eating Keto. Don’t be afraid to salt your food or even throw some salt in your water when you are fasting. It’s very easy to simply not get enough. That may help some of the sleep and other issues you described.

(Sophie Wu) #3

Thank you so much, this helped me clear my worries a bit. I thought I was fat adapted initially because I was all good with 16/8 any day I wanted, provided that I ate more than 800-900 calories with little work out. So I’ll give keto some more time, and definitely more if I’m doing pilates with bloody weights in a very hot room, and hope that I can eventually reach a level of flexibility with fasting.

Can I just ask, for someone who is definitely fat adapted, does this mean they can just fast whenever they want regardless of how much eat in a day and their body will be all right and very flexible with it?

#4

Everyone will be different. Personally, at this point, I can fast pretty much anytime without much effort. So yes, I can transition very easily. Others need a bit more prep before.

Full disclosure, I’ve been eating pretty much full bore Carnivore for quite a while now. I transition in to a fast a little easier now than I did when I was eating more vegitables.

(Robin) #5

It’s a challenge to get all the old messages out of our heads about cutting back on calories to lose weight. That will sabotage you. Forget calories (within reason, of course) and eat. eat! It’s a very freeing process!
You got this

(Sophie Wu) #6

After last night, I think eating MOAR is the best solution for me, and I hated how my body wasn’t feeling well after and during the fast. I’ll definitely be giving keto more time and only fast if… Well if my body is ready for it. There’s a keto restaurant which opened recently at my city, soooooo eager to try out their almond chicken pies :drooling_face:

#7

Things aren’t so simple.

I could fast very easily, often automatically on high-carb, way before fat adaptation.

Now I can’t (longer term, I mean. 24 hour is possible sometimes and 16 is basic, I have that since forever, I did 16/8 before keto and fat adaptation). I need eating every day and I need a lot of food (well more than 900 kcal for sure. 1600 is usually enough but I better eat it at once then, it’s more effective that way).

So lower-carb just made my fasting abilities much worse. Carnivore often triggers many meals, that’s the worst fasting wise. But best otherwise so I try to trick to it as much as I can.

I never am particularly hungry, it’s the combined effect of fat adaptation (sudden, sharp, strong hunger disappeared) and extreme low plant carbs. But I still can’t fast for long as my body wants food. No hunger but dizziness and weakness, maybe loss of vision. My body WANTS its food, every day, high protein, high fat. With some exceptions, now I am sick and barely can eat (1300 kcal) but it’s very short term.

So nope, fat adaptation and extreme low-carb doesn’t mean one can fast well.

I have about 40lbs extra fat on me, by the way. My body doesn’t care, it wants its energy at least mostly from food but usually only from it (now that my energy need is a bit lower. it was very happy with only 2000 kcal when I was fattier and I lost fat smoothly without effort, eating way more carbs than now but still low-carb).

Wise decision. Don’t force it.

(Allie) #8

Depends on the person and how their body reacts to it. Sounds like it’s a definite no for you.

How’s your salt intake? Did you replenish the electrolytes / fluid you lost during the hot Pilates class?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

I would certainly agree. We enter ketosis almost immediately after our insulin drops low enough from cutting the carbs. But fat-adaptation is a process that takes longer.

My guess is that you probably perspired quite a bit during your exercise and you probably hadn’t drunk enough bone broth afterward. I am not a doctor, but the dizziness and palpitations sound like hypovolaemia, which is easily cured by the salt, minerals, and liquid of a cup or two of bone broth.

You don’t have to make your own bone broth; there are commercial varieties available in both liquid and dried cube form (double-check the ingredients before buying, though). “Stock” is another word for it.

At eight weeks on keto, most people will have finished re-adapting their muscles to fatty-acid metabolism. And if you have enough excess fat left to shed, then yes, fasting should be fairly easy for you (as witnessed by your lack of hunger). However, there is a limit to how much energy we can take from our fat stores in a given day, which is why thin people have trouble fasting. If you are interested in this point, Richard Morris once calculated the number of calories per gram of body fat that we can mobilise in a day, and the thread he posted about it is around here, somewhere.

Psyillium husk is indigestible—in other words, a form of fibre. Many ketonians feel that they can consume unlimited amounts of fibre, because it will not affect their serum glucose. But while a number of forum members swear by the fibre in their diet, there are just as many of us who find that fibre is bad for our digestive system. The great majority of us, so far as I can tell see neither benefit nor detriment to eating fibre. In any case, since fibre is by definition indigestible, it will neither nourish you nor help your brain fog in any way.

#11

My understanding of this was that fiber is important for our gut microbiome (soluble fiber, certainly, as a prebiotic) though I do vaguely recall a valid use for insoluble (forgive me, I’ve just started delving into this stuff and it’s not all entirely sunk in xD)

I would have thought though that the biggest issue with something like psyllium husk would be its… ‘seedy nature’ (thinking gut damage/inflammation), though granted it appears to be lectin free. I guess that may give it a free pass…

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #12

That’s the claim, and it’s supposed to be the butyrate they produce that is so good for the intestinal lining. But Dr. Stephen Phinney, a long-time researcher into the low-carb, high-fat/ketogenic diet, believes that the ketone body, β-hydroxybutyrate, is even better for the intestinal lining.

In any case, the mechanical trauma of passing fibrous masses can be deleterious to some people. On these forums there are members who swear that fibre is essential to their bowel heath, and an equal number who swear that their IBS, Croh’ns disease, etc., is much better when they avoid fibre completely. Most of us, of course, don’t worry about it, one way or the other.

Two quotations that I like to quote: Dr. Jason Fung says, “Carbohydrate is the poison, and fibre is the antidote. If you’re not taking the poison, why would you need the antidote?” And Dr. Paul Mason likes to compare constipation to a traffic jam on the freeway, and says, “If you’ve got too many cars on the road already, how is adding more cars going to help?”

(Robin) #13

My fave quotes

#14

I’d be in that camp too. Looking at my food diary for the last 2 weeks, I seem to be averaging about 17g of fiber. That’s mainly from food that hasn’t changed for me since getting onto Keto and that I’m confident doesn’t cause me any (noticeable) issues. Largely my salad things like spinach, rocket, celery, Avocados etc.

Certainly no plans to ditch that stuff unless I notice any odd trends with it. Already had to bin off the nightshades and legumes and can’t imagine an entirely plant free diet for myself. That would certainly make me sad.

(Bob M) #15

Have you tried not eating any of these for a while, say a few weeks, then adding them back in?

#16

I haven’t. As I say, I really don’t want to drop all the veggies out of my diet. That doesn’t appeal at all; sounds like misery.

You think they could be doing something nefarious that I’m not aware of?

(Sophie Wu) #17

@PaulL
The psyllium husk may have further lowered my blood sugar levels after reading some stuff online, don’t know how accurate that is. But yeah, I may have had too much at once, or maybe my body still needs to adjust. I took it for my constipation, and now I’m literally a poop machine (which feels great to get all that gunk out of my system!) but I think I should look at… Gentler solutions. Magnesium has been great for the constipation too but doesn’t get as much poop out of me. And I also wanted to know if there will be a point where my body won’t be shedding anymore fat even in keto. I’m 5’7 and 114lbs, is it possible for me to shed further fat from here? I feel I’m in a good place right now, but there are still some stubborn fats around the body which I’d love to see gone.
@Shortstuff
Is there like a supplement that has all the minerals my body needs to take, because I don’t think my electrolyte stores are very good and I’m pretty low on many things I reckon. Any recommendations?

On another positive note, my crazy mood swings are gone! It peaked around about the 40 day mark and I’m feeling quite well now, glad I rode it out. Thanks everybody!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #18

As you will notice, there are many, many threads on these forums started by people whose weight loss has stopped. There are so many obese people around, that we think of keto as a weight-loss diet, but it is really a weight-normalisation diet.

Getting enough salt helps to keep all the other minerals properly regulated.

(Allie) #19

These are the electrolytes I use, just add to water / coffee whatever, but really the main thing to focus on is salt - not table salt, a decent quality salt, like Celtic grey (my favourite due to its mineral content) or Himalayan pink.

https://www.bulk.com/uk/electrolyte-powder.html

There won’t be any harm in a multivitamin, I sometimes take the one sold by the same company my other supplements come from, but have never noticed any difference from doing so.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #20

[quote=“PaulL, post:18, topic:116022”]
As you will notice, there are many, many threads on these forums started by people whose weight loss has stopped. There are so many obese people around, that we think of keto as a weight-loss diet, but it is really a weight- normalisation diet. [/quote]

This can not be stated enough.

Also there are so many more benefits to this WOE than losing weight. No more mosquito bites, no more skin tags, and the list just goes on and on.

#21

Wait… really? This is a thing? I know this WOE has a whole host of benefits, but this is one I hadn’t heard about and one I will truly welcome if that’s the case xD