Hello again I have only joined your forum a week ago but the amount of information I have gained it’s just unbelievable. Thank you so much. I have a question please. Just to point out I am not seeking medical advice just opinions and other people’s experiences. I started keto/ fasting in February so only two months in. Yesterday I went to dentist just a routine examination. Cut a long story short she discovers patches and bumps on my tongue and now referred to specialist to confirm if this is a geographic tongue or big C! In the uk they only do 2 week referral if they suspect cancer. I am obviously passed myself as I have actually never felt better physically. I had my bloods done about 4 weeks ago and it’s all spot on. Serum cholesterol 4.7 mmols, serum triglycerides 0.9, serum hdl 1.6 mmols, serum cholesterol/ hdl ratio 2.9 mmol, serum non high density lipoprotein 3.1 mmols.
In addition serum TSH level 2.84 mu/l
Haemaglobin A1c 31 mmols.
I was happy with these results but I am now worried about this tongue issue. I have been experiencing a dry mouth and have been fasting at the time of appointment. I did say that to dentist but she felt I should be referred. Have any of you experienced any changes to your tongue during keto and fasting. Thank you and I really appreciate your input in advance. Ps I am still learning to navigate this website so sometimes reply to a wrong person. Nevertheless I am very grateful.
Geographic tongue
Wow, this is a new one for me! Hopefully someone will have encountered this.
Deficiencies in some B-vitamins can contribute to geographic tongue.
Because keto is a higher in fat diet, it is possible you are not getting all the micronutrients you need if you are not eating food as nutrient dense as possible. Fat, while calorie dense, does not provide a ton of nutrients. For example: if you are eating 1500 calories a day and 60 to 70 percent of that is fat, you only have 450-600 calories to get the majority of your macronutrients.
I don’t know what your daily food intake is like, but if you are eating a lot of fat via fat bombs, bulletproof coffees, or other fatty keto processed foods you might be developing some deficiencies. I would suggest making sure your are getting your food via real food. As you are getting fat adapted, you don’t need to add fat for fat’s sake. It is also okay to up your protein a bit as long a your keep your carbs in the keto range.
Hello yes I been researching this as well a started with magnesium with vit d and b vitamins. I probably didn’t have enough through my diet. My fat intake is not very high and most of it comes from healthy fats. I only have cream in my coffee as a treat. I think the problem is that I don’t consume enough calories if I eat OMAD which is most days. I wish could eat more but find it difficult. I’m trying to double up my protein my one meal but it still doesn’t seem to be enough according to macro calculator on carb manager. It calculated 1200 calories but most days I only manage about 1000. Thank you again!
The dry mouth you mention is a feature of keto. It has nothing to do with being dehydrated or sleeping with one’s mouth open.
I am pretty sure that whatever is going on with your tongue, it is not keto-related. I seriously hope it’s not cancer, and I do suspect it’s probably geographic tongue (what an odd name, but flavourful!). Don’t worry about it unless you have to.
Your ratio of triglycerides to HDL is excellent, and it shows that you are quite insulin-sensitive.
In any case, it is highly unlikely that your tongue situation has anything to do with cancer, since you are in good metabolic shape. Given that people are able to keep glioblastoma multiforme under control with keto, how much more should tongue cancer be inhibited by keto.
However, if the fat we eat is part of the meat in our diet, then we should be getting all the nutrients we need.
Precisely!
Hi Paul
I don’t think my tongue is anything to do with keto and definitely don’t blame keto as I never eaten more healthily and cleanly as I do now. I was just shocked that’s all. But quite possibly I’m missing some vitamins as I’m learning. Saying that I eat meat or oily fish every day and include some green vegetables and spinach, avocado. I use butter at times but monthly virgin olive oil. My weakness is Greek yogurt which I have couple of times a week or so but if I really want it I’ll have it. But because I’m still adjusting I might be missing nutrients I suppose and hence geographic tongue. ( I never heard of it and thought what a weird name)! I’ll just have to wait and see.
I have been in Keto diet for 1.5 years and I did OMAD for about 5 months continuously, but I did not experience this condition, sorry can’t help you, wish you well.
As I remember, spinach is high in oxalate, at the very beginning of my keto life, I used to eating greens, but I stopped having greens every day when I knew what oxalate could do, I’m almost a carnivore now and I’m also quite well.
Another thing I noticed in your diet is dairy food, at the beginning, I also use milk in my coffee, I stopped it when I found it spikes my fasting blood glucose in the morning. As I learned from this forum that, some people can’t deal with the carbs in dairy food while some others can.
The possibility of cancer is quite shocking, so I don’t blame you. I was just trying to reassure you that a keto diet is more likely to treat cancer than to cause it.
If you are eating mostly fresh, whole foods, then that diet should be giving you all the vitamins and minerals that you need.
In any case, are there symptoms from your tongue? What I mean is, would you have noticed a problem if someone hadn’t told you? I’d expect cancer to be painful, for one thing; geographic tongue, not necessarily. Also, it appears that geographic tongue can move around on the tongue, so if yours does, it’s not cancer.
Don’t know if any of that helps, but we’re with you. Keep us posted.
Also, certain dairy proteins cause a reaction in certain people. I could see Mon’s tongue problem being the result of a protein sensitivity. If that’s the case, then it is almost certainly not cancer. Of course, we’ll have to wait and see.
Well, I will reiterate that at only 1000 calories per day, the actual calories for getting the majority of your micronutrients is actually 300-400. In my non-professional opinion that is definitely not enough for optimal health over the long term.
As a petite, middle-aged female (58 years old, 5’3"), I do think this can be one of the possible drawbacks of keto: making sure to eat in such a way as to get all the micronutrients we need.
The other thing to consider is NOT eating 1mad almost every day. Jason Fung and Megan Ramos suggest mixing up your schedule to keep your body guessing and not get used to a certain level of food intake.
Hello yes I’m becoming more aware of that and mix OMAD and 20:4 so I add more calories in. I’m also very petite only 5 foot tall and I’m 51. I’m also quite active even if it’s just walking
Thank you Echo I appreciate your input. I’m sort of forcing greens for added nutrients. I don’t think bit of cream in my coffee spikes me glucose but I have definitely noticed that Greek yogurt does elevate it normally from about 4.3 mmol to 5.3 i do keep it as a treat.
Hi Paul. Thank you I guess I’ll have to wait and see. There is coating on my tongue and just feel little bump on the side of it but no pain and it’s not sensitive to any foods. I knew it was there thought maybe oral thrush. I’m surprised at myself how much my diet changed for better since I started ketogenic diet a keeping total carbs at about 10g. I been pushing some greens for vitamins. Eating whole foods literally changed my outlook on everything. Though i still have these self sabotaging thoughts. For me it’s glass of red wine with my food but then I would probably not stopped at one. I have to keep remembering why I’m doing it though even that is changed from purely for a weight loss to better health longevity and fasting for autophagy if I can get there. I been researching a lot and found lots of information but I guess one needs to be careful with so to trust. I will keep you all posted. Thank you.
When I did my 26 day fast I had to scrape my tongue daily. It would get a fairly thick layer of white on it. I can’t remember off the top of my head what is is called but I was prepared for it as I read about it in my research before doing the 26 day fast. It was pretty strange and I could feel it on there but it scraped off pretty well each morning.
Got this off the net.
During fasting, the phenomenon of a white-coated tongue can be attributed to various factors related to changes in saliva production, oral hygiene, and bacterial activity. When you fast, the reduction in food intake can lead to decreased saliva flow. Saliva plays a crucial role in maintaining the natural balance of bacteria in the mouth. With less saliva, the environment becomes conducive to bacterial growth.
The white coating on the tongue is often a result of the accumulation of dead cells, bacteria, and debris. As saliva diminishes, these substances aren’t adequately washed away, contributing to the formation of a white film. Additionally, the lack of food consumption during fasting may lead to a decrease in the mechanical cleansing action that occurs when we chew and swallow food. This further allows for the buildup of materials on the tongue’s surface.
Moreover, fasting can sometimes cause a shift in the body’s metabolic processes, leading to the release of ketones. These ketones, when expelled through breath and saliva, can contribute to the coating on the tongue. Ketones have a distinct odor and can impart a particular taste, which may be noticeable during fasting periods.
Maintaining good oral hygiene practices, such as regular tongue cleaning and staying hydrated, can help mitigate the white tongue phenomenon. Drinking water helps stimulate saliva production and aids in the natural cleansing process. It’s essential to note that while a white-coated tongue during fasting is generally temporary and harmless, persistent or severe cases may warrant professional dental advice to rule out any underlying issues.
That’s a great explanation and research by you thank you for that. I been brushing my tongue since I been told. I don’t want to over think it and just wait. Your theory wound explain white patches. Thank you.