I’ve been fat adapted for over 2 years now so I can easily go in and out of ketosis fairly easily.
Does anyone have a good scientific way of how to figure out how many carbs I can tolerate knowing what my carb limit is so that I can have a few carbs without taking me out of ketosis? I don’t like tracking and have done most of my keto life without tracking that much. But perhaps I need to do that to figure out my carb tolerance.
I can generally have a sweet potato or a couple of craft beers even and still be back in ketosis pretty quick. But I really don’t know where that borderline is that would actually take me out of ketosis. Perhaps if I found something that is exactly 10 carbs per serving and otherwise eat 0 carbs along with a specified amount of carbs. That might give me my carb tolerance.
Finding carb tolerance after being fat adapted for over 2 years
I am not sure you can find what you are seeking.
What I mean is that it is probably a moving target.
Measure you carb tolerance after having been under 20 grams for months and maybe you get a value of 60.
Eat 60 grams of carbs per month for a couple of months and maybe you are back to 30.
Per @Shortstuff - probably best to track with blood testing (regularly whenever you are not absolutely sure you are under 20 grams).
The issue for Maintenance is not “staying in ketosis”, but of not readapting back into chronic lipogenesis. You do that by keeping carb types, amounts, and frequency such that you don’t totally recompensate glycogen.
It’s fairly easy, if you eat carbs, then skip them for a period afterwards. I use the 1:2 method. For example, eat carbs one meal (or day), skip them for the next two. In reality, it takes quite a long time, even weeks of eating carbs daily before your body starts regaining fat.
I’ve never regained any fat in over 18 years.
Not sure you can do it without tracking carbs, to find your own break point.
I found mine by just adding new carbs back in (in 5 gram increments, which is how the Atkin’s ladder works), if a carb starting making me gain, I dropped it. I have expanded my nuts, can’t go back to wheat based breads, can eat small servings of winter squash or sweet potato, and not daily, but I can have them once in a while. Eating this way I can do about 50 grams of carb daily without messing myself up. I don’t do blood BS, but that would only help. I hate needles of all kinds so I avoid them whenever possible. Also I am not and have not been diabetic. Flirted with prediabetes, but didn’t cross over the line.
Good luck on sorting yourself out.
Consistent blood testing multiple times a day to guage your results.
I was going to do the same as I’ve been adapted for 5 months but I lost my blood meter… Oops…
Hi Mark
I’ve been fat adapted for a few years as well and asked myself exactly the same question. I look at it as food rather than macronutrients. We all know that food is a combination of macro and micro nutrients.
So these days I chase high nutrient density, some novelty and ongoing satiety.
As Katie mentioned above, I eat food then do a basic blood curve. The food I eat in a self-test may have higher carbs than the food I eat to maintain ketosis. But I test my blood glucose at times: 0 min; 30 min; 60 min; 90 min and aim to be back under 5.5 mmol by 2 hours post food test. I look for a spike, or a gentle curve.
For me, I don’t mind the finger prick test. I give up 5 drops of blood. I use $2.50 worth of test strips. But I gain n=1 valuable data about me and what food I can tolerate.
Initially, maybe one year keto, my tests would see blood glucose spikes > 8.0mmol at about 60 to 90 minutes with any carbohydrate based foods, except for green leafy vegetables and some fermented foods (sauerkraut). These days, more than 3 years low carb healthy fats, I can eat well fermented bread in small amounts with no post eating glucose spike.
The n=1 blood testing method works well for me.
It is very easy to be kicked out of ketosis.
Sometimes it is difficult to come back .
testing the upper carb limit isnt worth it for me.
I still have pee strips but never had a blood meter. They are probably too old now. I do have a glucometer, but I don’t think that will help me figure it out. Without a blood meter, perhaps just checking the macros before eating and keeping an eye on how I feel afterwards. Getting a blood meter at this point doesn’t seem necessary for a short experiment.
Once your fully ketogenically fat adapted (27 weeks) your carb tolerance could go up too 200 grams max in carbs and you will still remain in ketosis by checking with a blood meter (not urinalysis sticks; you will not see any ketones)?
Nutritional Ketosis (intermittent-fasting) -vs- Caloric Restricted Ketosis?
References:
- “…Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame. Think of a candle, where the wick is your carbohydrate intake and the base is your fat storage. You need to light the wick to access the base and tap into this large reserve of energy. The science behind this is based on a substance known as pyruvate. Pyruvate is formed during glucose metabolism and if glucose is not present, fat has nowhere to attach to the mitochondria, which can slows the metabolism, and halt or significantly decrease fat oxidation. …” …More
Metabolic Hormonal Conditioning:
Fung: “… Fasting triggers numerous hormonal adaptations that do NOT happen with simple caloric reduction …” …More
Water is not fat soluble, water does not burn fat…
Thermal Conditions:
If you pour cool water on cool sliced bacon the water will do nothing?
If you boil the water with the sliced bacon all the fat floats to the top (exercise; physical exertion)?
If you were to pour acetic acid or vinegar on the bacon something else might happen?
- List item
Please share your “experience?”
Body can use both ketones or glucose from glycogen stores or dietary carbohydrates for fuel and can switch gears when needed! Fully ketogenically fat adapted then you could probably use your onboard body fat (if you have any left?) or dietary fat for fuel!
It does not say you “…definitely cannot burn fat without carbohydrates…” it is simply an understanding about a scientifically investigated pathway by which a certain thing can occur? (not absolute; encompassing or all inclusive?)
Some where in the science there is a logic to it, if the research consistently, correctly and clearly demonstrates it is so? Examining all variables is how we reach a good idea as to what is happening?
That seems like the high end. It took me about 4-5 weeks to become fat adapted. Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones.
Fung has put hundreds of patients on fasting regimens. His lectures are based on first hand, repeatable science.
Try 27 weeks; 4-5 weeks your still burning glucose (dietary carbs & glycogen stores; skeletal muscle tissue) for fuel along with ketones (from body fat & dietary fat)… Takes the liver 27 weeks to adapt the metabolic pathways to really establish true fat adaption and re-establish normal homeostatic metabolic functioning! Trying to stuff a 27 week milestone into a 4-5 week period of time is not going to happen that instantaneously.
There’s also hundreds if not thousands out there that have been successful at fat loss and metabolic normalization without Fasting.
Fasting is not a Keto Rule.
Much of the online literature suggests 5-8 weeks. Maybe it’s not 100% until week 27 as you suggest, but if I can go 48-72 hours without hunger, with tons of energy, increased metabolism and heightened weight loss and not be fat adapted, then I’ve pulled a fast one on my body (pun intended).
Personally, I think fasting >>>> keto. For instance, if keto means eating 5+ meals a day, that will not be as good as eating say one or two meals a day. Long term fasting, say >2+ days, has had tremendous benefits for me, above and beyond keto/low carb. At some point, even keto ceases to work, and you need something else. But that might just be me.
Watching Dr. Westman on YouTube. He is showing a chart with Ketone threshold as 50 carbs or lower. I think if one is just starting and needs to get fat adapted, they need to be in the under 20 range for as long as needed to be fat adapted where you can go into and out of ketosis without having to start all over. I wouldn’t recommend going up to 50 without doing some tracking or at least be aware it could possibly knock you out of ketosis if you aren’t paying attention to your body. But according to his chart, most anyone should be in nutritional ketosis under 50 carbs a day. And a low carb diet as 50 to 150 grams of carbs per day.