yo-yo dieting while keto
Fat loss on CICO?
Lolo
(gooeykablooey)
#73
But the “proof” you provided of people discussing how they lost weight on keto by controlling cravings was all anecdotal. There are so few studies on true keto diet most of what we have to go on is anecdotal and discussion of our n=1 experiences.
siobhan
(Siobhan)
#74
How do you correlate this with the studies mentioned in The Obesity Code where limiting calories has pretty much never resulted in sustained weight loss? From what I have been learning so far weight loss is a hormonal issue (generally centered around insulin). If you stall out it is because your basal insulin is too high to allow further weight loss. Limiting calories is a poor and very temporary solution to the problem.
@carl @richard would like your opinion on this too to see if I’ve got this right
acrunchyfrog
(Tom)
#75
@Pilotbob, I keep meaning to snip out a clip of @richard and @carl doing the Maiiiil! Thing for my email notification. 
ketana
(Kel Ta)
#76
good explanation- this probably explains the variation you see with some people eating crazy amounts of fat 5000 plus a day and losing weight
BillJay
#77
Emphasis added by me.
Never is a strong word, and I never use it. Ooops! 
First let me clarify that I am not saying that people should limit calories to lose weight, but if someone is fat-adapted, which includes a reasonable presumption that they can access body fat, and if they are not losing weight, then perhaps reducing their dietary intake of fat slowly will let their body make up the difference.
Personally, I think intermittent and extended fasting (IF & EF) are better choices for weight loss stalls because I think the problem for those people is that their fasting insulin is still too high and it is sabotaging the release of fatty acids from adipose tissue,
The studies that report that diets fail where limiting calories is the mechanism in weight loss don’t report 100% failure in sustaining the loss, just often around 99% - yes, extremely high and many of these dieters repeat the cycle ending up in yo-yo dieting and I was one of them to roughly 500 lbs gained and then lost over the years.
For many people who do persevere, it seems to get harder and harder as their hormones work against them and it’s probably insulin, but could be thyroid, testosterone (men and women have it) or leptin, ghrelin, etc.
So, it is “possible” to sustain weight loss by limiting calories, but many people’s metabolisms are so deranged they can’t or it eventually works against them.
Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek report a study where the top 25% of people tested were so insulin sensitive that they seemed to have no issues eating anything without immediate consequences, but I’d predict that as many of them get older, they won’t be so lucky.
[quote=“siobhan, post:74, topic:4271”]From what I have been learning so far weight loss is a hormonal issue (generally centered around insulin). If you stall out it is because your basal insulin is too high to allow further weight loss.
[/quote]
I totally agree although testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) could be a factor.
[quote=“siobhan, post:74, topic:4271”]Limiting calories is a poor and very temporary solution to the problem.
[/quote]
Agreed, it just gets harder and harder over time to sustain the weight loss.
As a personal example, I was someone who gained and lost about 500 lbs through mostly a CICO paradigm, although to a large degree it limited refined carbohydrates and I didn’t track actual grams at the time, it was not what we would consider LCHF and definitely not keto.
If was hard, it was damn hard! I was hungry all the time, I was usually very tired and almost always in pain, even in my 20’s but I did it.
I even reversed T2D after a few years of changing diet and exercise to the point were my HbA1C values were normal, but it was a constant struggle.
When I finally found LCHF, it became much easier to maintain my weight and even easier after I went keto and even easier when I added IF and EF to the point that I needed to make an effort to keep from losing weight.
However, I was averaging about 1,000 - 1,200 calories a day and thanks to keto and fat I wasn’t hungry, but given my height, 6 ft (183 cm), that was too low, so I set on a path to raise my average daily calories and increase my BMR and that process is still going on, but I’ve raised my daily average by 500 calories and still maintained my weight.
Fundamentally, it’s all about the hormones.
ketana
(Kel Ta)
#78
this is an interesting journey, I guess I appreciate what Dr. Ted Naiman has been highlighting about reducing fat once fat adapted to encourage burning your own fat- I am sure methods and approaches are diverse as each human and each person has to find what works- obviously it changes apparently with time.
In addition I think the BMR is a really interesting conundrum- do you know of any materials written specifically on managing BMR and how to increase it via increase in calories? I am also not sure if there is any research on overall health benefits to keeping BMR at a certain level?
siobhan
(Siobhan)
#79
As for the second half, there are a lot of studies cited in The Obesity Code that state an increase in calories consistently increases BMR, while a decrease in calories consistently results in lowered BMR.
The health benefit comes from what “increased BMR” really means - your body has to use up the energy somehow, and most of it is from internal systems like heating, cell repair, increasing bone density, etc
This is supported by the fact that people who ate a ton more calories than is recommended saw an increase in lean body mass, and sometimes bone density, meaning that when they were eating more part of what the body was doing was building new muscle and bone.
This is what I learned from The Obesity Code by Dr Fung - I’m still new to this line of thinking, but I think @carl @billjay and maybe @brenda would have studies they can specifically link on it.
Yeah, I definitely agree on that. I have found this to be true for many people, as well as myself.
I’ll concede I shouldn’t have said never. Rather - according to the research I’ve seen often the conclusion is that what relation there is between long term weight loss (e.g. not yo-yo’ing) that limiting calories often ends up in lowered BMR. Only a sith deals in absolutes and all that.
Bolded are ones I definitely agree with - not that I disagree with the testosterone one, I just haven’t heard anything about it. Any links?
I’m not sure I’d qualify limiting calories not working long term as “deranged” I think it is actually working exactly as its supposed to. imo (not very scientific but there you go) feasting/fasting or at least eating normally and then fasting is what the body is designed to handle, not consistently lowered calorie intake. But then again I don’t believe people in the ambiguous “back then” really got overweight enough or tried to diet in the first place, so it might not have come up (lol).
Although, that said, I’m sure there are people it works for. There’s got to be at least one or two for the “calories in calories out” meme to not completely die off within a few years. Like you said - it’s probably that 25%
I would like to see that 25% endure caloric restriction and see if they react the same way, though.
I wouldn’t be surprised. You often hear the trope of the thin guy who doesn’t get fat until his 30s or 40s. Whether those guys are in the 25% though, I don’t know.
It also likely widely varies by their genetics, their ancestors exposure to carbs in the past, etc as well. For some people CICO will probably definitely work, I just don’t really know who they are and the question of whether it’s the best option to take regardless I don’t really know either. I guess every person has to experiment and come to their own conclusion.
If I could change one thing though, for the entire world, is that for the majority of people CICO is not so simple as it sounds. Our bodies rebel against it, and sometimes it just flat out doesn’t work. I had experimented with CICO (very briefly) and just got headaches, awful mood, low energy, etc. But I’m not everyone, so…
If we could get the general thought of the public to “weight loss and health is hormonal, not calorie driven (although there are exceptions)” I think we would be much better off for it. Considering the people that applies to are in the majority, it would make much more sense than to take something that applies to maybe a quarter of the population and call the other 75% (or whatever it is) a failure when it doesn’t work for them. An individualized approach that encourages n=1 is something I’d like to see for the future.
ketana
(Kel Ta)
#80
I think there is a subtle distinction that I am interested in- that there is CICO and then there is fat restriction after fat adaptation- they’re different effects and I think many people use the latter on a Keto diet and LCHF to get the body composition they are after…
siobhan
(Siobhan)
#81
Hmmmm… fair point. Then it would be a question of: does the same thing happen to people who are fat adapted? Does it only happen to carb burners because they are carb burners? For me, I stalled out when I did not eat enough (and even then it was probably 1200 calories or so), but that could have been because my insulin was too high (which I am lowering with extended fasting). I’ve also seen the “you’re not eating enough” response to people who have stalled before too - though that is anecdotal. So, then, the question is assuming your insulin is low enough could you calorie restrict (not fast, but actually calorie restrict) to lower body fat percentage. I completely misunderstood your question, lol, that is all on me.
It is an interesting one though.
I think, again, it would come down to “it depends on the person” but I am sure there are some seasoned keto veterans who could better answer it.
Sorry for misunderstanding!
ketana
(Kel Ta)
#82
oh Siobhan I feel like your knowledge and info is so valuable! More info is always better I think! no apologies necessary! What is apparent is that people are trying all sorts of things to find the right mix but like you said it is still a bit of trial and error process. I would be curious for those folks if there is any negative changes in BMR? it’s obscure but not sure if anyone has had experience with that.
siobhan
(Siobhan)
#83
I think on keto people it would majorly depend on many factors, one of which would be basal insulin. Apparently it is common to stall around 6 months into keto, because you’ve eaten up all the fat your current basal insulin allows (combined with your fat cells being more receptive the insulin you’re making already). I think if a keto person tried to calorie restrict at that point then they would run into BMR issues, or just nothing would happen - because they can’t access more of their fat until they lower their insulin more. That’s where I was at. I think that specific situation is where I would not be surprised to see negative results.
jmbundy
(John)
#84
I’m getting convinced, I just want to know what happens, every study I read showing that a reduction in insulin reduces fat stored there is another that shows that is not the case. Does it just pass through us? I guess the physics is too implanted, I need to see the mechanisms.
Fiorella
#85
Look up GLUT4 mechanisms. But, get ready for deep dive into biochemistry. I think this is what you are looking for.
JesS90
(Jessica)
#87
It’s really good. Exactly what we talked about. And I’m convinced, the fast starts on wednesday evening 
.
Daisy
#88
Well, luckily for you, there is the perfect show to listen to just out! I haven’t listened myself yet but it looks set to be a corker and I am sure will help.
BillJay
#89
For anyone interested, GLUT refers to “Glucose Transporters” and GLUT4 is specifically found in adipose tissue (body fat) and muscle.
Glucose transporter type 4, also known as GLUT4, is a protein encoded, in humans, by the GLUT4 gene. GLUT4 is the insulin-regulated glucose transporter found primarily in adipose tissues and striated muscle (skeletal and cardiac).
Although insulin normally gets the credit for “fat storage”, it’s actually insulin triggering GLUTs of doing the work of pushing glucose into the cells, most, but not all GLUTs require insulin, so some GLUTs can function without insulin.
jmbundy
(John)
#90
Listened last night, curious about the response time to metabolism changes but it just sounds like ramp it up and fast, repeat.
