Fat limits/odd circulatory issue

[zosima]

Howdy. I’ve been keto on and of for ~6 years. I’ve been pretty strict PKD/KetoAF for 6 months and intermittently before that. I’m a slim young guy with no serious health problems. Fatigue and focus are debilitating if I eat any sugar. So I daresay all of that has cleared up with keto and improvement in my digestive health. If I break any of my diet rules, you bet I can write that days work off as if it were someone else’s - as if a less clever version of myself stole my body for ~24 hours. Also, a tiny amount of carbs (even from liver) can make me crave food for 24 hours.

I’ve recently been eating many meals throughout the day, which is a blessing for all day energy. 5 meals a day doesn’t spike my insulin I guess. I’ve also been playing around with my fat intake. I can eat fat till there’s none left without any digestive trouble. I read around and see some of you eating ~200g’s of fat a day. Every once in a while I’ll do so as well and eat around 300g’s of meat and 200g’s of fat. Other days I’ll eat less fat and less protein. But high fat and 70g’s of protein seems to be the perfect regimen were it not for the problem below.

On these days when I bomb fat, the veins in my upper arms will become protruded and there will be little bumps along the big veins. Like the veins along a bodybuilders upper pecs, except these little bumps/ripples are prominent. If I massage them they feel “crackly”. There are 4-5 of them and they only appear if I eat ~200 grams of fat.

I’ve obviously stopped eating such high fat because I don’t know what’s going on. The problem is that I feel great eating higher fat, and I don’t really know what the limit is. Or how risky eating fat is with this odd condition. I can’t find any other mentions of this. So I’ve stopped playing that game for the moment and scheduled a doctors appointment. Unfortunately I have to wait a couple months for this appt because of COVID.

While I wait for this appt, what do you guys think? The consensus in the community seems to be that fat does no harm in the long run to our arteries. Every post on fat limits suggest that there is none unless you’re worried about weight (which I’m luckily not). Although I would love to agree with the idea that super high fat is fine, I tend to think too much of anything is bad. I’ll report back with my numbers after the appointment.

[PaulL]

There are limits in all things. If you are eating to satiety, and your variation in fat intake is the result, you are probably fine. On the other hand, if you are choking down fat just to see how much you can eat, that’s probably not such a good idea.

The key to insulin management for many people is limiting carbohydrate intake as well as sugar. As long as your carbohydrate intake is low enough to avoid triggering a serious insulin response, the insulin secretion resulting from your protein and fat intake should be moderate. Our general recommendation is to keep carbohydrate intake under 20 g/day, to eat 1.0-1.5 kg of protein per kilo of lean body mass a day, and to eat enough fat to satisfy your hunger. Most people find that doing this results in their naturally eating only once or twice a day, and going several hours between meals, because they are satisfied.

[atomicspacebunny]

On these days when I bomb fat, the veins in my upper arms will become protruded and there will be little bumps along the big veins. Like the veins along a bodybuilders upper pecs, except these little bumps/ripples are prominent. If I massage them they feel “crackly”. There are 4-5 of them and they only appear if I eat ~200 grams of fat.

Sounds like arterial phlebitis maybe from not enough vitamin C? The slippery stuff (glycocalyx) that coats your veins is almost gone from not enough vitamin C?

References:

[1] Hypothesis: arterial glycocalyx dysfunction is the first step in the atherothrombotic process

[2] The endothelial glycocalyx: composition, functions, and visualization

[3] Loss of Endothelial Glycocalyx During Acute Hyperglycemia Coincides With Endothelial Dysfunction and Coagulation Activation In Vivo

[4] Vitamin C revisited

[5] “…A common side effect of varicose veins is phlebitis, a small bump that grows from the protruding vein. But don’t worry — it’s not a serious medical condition. Along with pain, cramping, and swelling, patients with varicose veins may experience a hard lump popping up on a vein. …” …More

[6]

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[7]

image link

[zosima]

Thanks for the valuable input! I agree that it is probably phlebitis. It’s interesting that they say this in the “Vitamin C Revisited” study:

“In healthy volunteers, manifestations of vitamin C deficiency (fatigue and/or irritability) occurred at plasma concentrations below 20 μmol/l.”

I’ve never focused on this. There’s so many things that the body regulates. Perhaps this is why I feel so great on days after I eat liver on a zerocarb diet.

It’s ridiculous to wait 3 months for a doc appt to get a few simple blood tests. But I have a bunch of liver in my freezer that I’m okay with eating flash fried so I’ll probably hit that today and tomorrow. Or perhaps I’ll deviate a little and eat sauerkraut for the sake of my veins.

I know brain (offal) has bioavailable ascorbate. Although lambs brain seems to be fairly safe on the prion front, I’m still wary of trying something that could make me docile and demented in 30 years. Perhaps because I have a direct relative suffering from alcoholism.

I guess I’m on the safer side with consistently low blood sugar as a non diabetic and zero carb intake. But I resolved yesterday to start running seriously again and eating limited fat until I know definitively that nothing is wrong. Only thing is that I get 100s on all my finals when I eat a ton of fat!

[ctviggen]

I’ll report back with my numbers after the appointment.

What “numbers”?

[zosima]

Cholesterol, trigs, hdl, ldl. Another poster suggested that vitamin C might be causing the problem, which seems plausible. Random phlebitis at my age doesn’t necessarily help one sleep easier at night. Also petechiae on the chest.

[zosima]

I hit all those numbers. 70 grams protein for a 70kg male. In response to your first paragraph, I can eat suet all day without feeling any bad impacts except for the circulatory stuff that happens. Usually around finals, I’ll eat 100gs of suet in the morning and then 100gs throughout the day and be sitting there at my desk at 10pm feeling phlibitis in my veins. When it first happened months ago I thought I was dying lol. But my brain seriously works better when I do this.

If I undereat fat or eat big meals, I’m liable to binge. So it looks like I need to find some healthy balance. I used to run 5 miles a day so I’m going to get back to that and perhaps work my way back up with fat while implementing organs or returning to a well rounded keto diet without KetaAF or PKD.

[atomicspacebunny]

Thanks for the valuable input! I agree that it is probably phlebitis. It’s interesting that they say this in the “Vitamin C Revisited” study:

“In healthy volunteers, manifestations of vitamin C deficiency (fatigue and/or irritability) occurred at plasma concentrations below 20 μmol/l.”

Notice the cholesterol crystals and how they inject into the endothelium wall because the glycocalyx is almost gone?

What you see below is probably what those lumps are and hearing them crackle when you press on them (crystals breaking) are or something like it (phlebitis)?

image link

[zosima]

Interesting. it’s hard to definitively pinpoint the glycocalyx in this picture because of my short lived relationship with biology but I think understand the gist of the protective mechanism of the glycocalyx. Maybe I’ll find/read an online textbook after my morning blitz chess…

This was also an interesting paragraph from an article you linked titled " Hypothesis: arterial glycocalyx dysfunction is the first step in the atherothrombotic process"

“Diabetes mellitus or metabolic syndrome/insulin resistance may be a cardiovascular disease in which the damage to the vascular glycocalyx could be of particular importance, following from the fact that mere hyperglycaemia causes loss of glycocalyx function followed by glycocalyx thinning and subsequent disease of the underlying vascular tissue. However, in these diseases there is microvascular as well as arterial disease. The association between compromized glycocalyx and microvascular disease in diabetic patients[18](javascript: might be explained as a consequence of the effect of glucose on glycocalyx throughout the vascular system.”

I’ve never thought about metabolic syndrom/diabetes as a cardiovascular disease. Also, there are many mentions of exercise being protective. I really must get back to running.

[atomicspacebunny]

I’ve never thought about metabolic syndrom/diabetes as a cardiovascular disease.

What’s so crazy and sad is most doctors don’t even know glycocalyx even exists?