Looking for experiences from athletes or highly trained individuals.
Keto has been great for me, but I recognize it’s not completely necessary forever. Looking at it from a performance side of things, my performance in certain exercises are certainly better with carbs than without. I’m trying to get a better perspective on how the body responds to reintroducing carbs after very fat adapted.
My approach is giving a keto diet a full year. From there, I will begin to add carbs in a CKD or TKD approach, and see how my body responds. I’ve seen Jeff Volek’s presentations, showing your fueling from fat at higher intensities than with a carb approach. I’m curious to of after a year of being fat adapted, if this will remain present, after reintroducing carbs. I am hopeful that being a year of fat adapted, that I will be able to quickly shift back into ketosis after having carbs, continue to fuel off fat at moderate-high exercise intensities, and have the to supercharge me through high intensities. I’m curious of other people’s experience when reintroducing carbs as far as pros/cons regarding performance, satiety, etc…Any studies regarding this and/or anecdotal experience is appreciated.
I’ve been trying a pseudo-TKD, where I introduce some carbs the first meal after my workout. I also have started to use whey protein, to attempt – gasp! – to drive insulin higher.
What I’ve found after 7+ years low carb/keto, is that I’m having issues with carbs. I had potatoes yesterday, with eggs. Caused pretty bad stomach upset.
On the other hand, I was using spaghetti squash, and that did not cause the same issue.
With both, I’m also trying to add saturated fat.
Does it work? It’s hard to tell. I haven’t done it long enough. And, I’m aiming for lower amounts of carbs, 20-40 grams. And, I no longer have my CGM, so I don’t know the blood sugar hit (though I am eating protein and meat first, then carbs, which should lessen the hit).
I’m saying this without being a highly trained individual.
Why did you go keto in the first place? If it was because you had metabolic dysfunction, then I don’t know if you would be “cured.” Keto certainly puts metabolic disfunction into remission, but it doesn’t cure it. If you go back to eating lots of carbs, you may end up going back to square one. In this situation, targeted carbs would probably be a better approach.
If you did it for other reasons, than adding carbs back into your diet may not cause any trouble. I think you will have to experiment with yourself and see what happens.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#4
As Andreas Eenfeldt puts it, keto is a lot like showering. It works if you do it, but if you stop, the benefits go away. Life can be unfair like that.
What keto “fixed” for me is still undetermined. I had some chronic inflammation from an injury, that was confirmed by blood tests. I BELIEVE I had some leaky gut going on from an excess of artificial sweeteners. That was never tested, and it’s still quite unknown what impact artificial sweeteners have on us. I was struggling to lose weight doing the same things that always had worked in the past. I started keto, and things got better. My belief is the inflammation from the injury had a lot to do with time, but perhaps some from diet. I’ve eliminated the artificial sweetener, in case that was an issue.
Given this, I believe I would benefit from adding carbs back in. Keto has many undeniable benefits. However, performance will be limited in the absence of carbs. It is my theory that the longer you are fat adapted, the better you can deal with having carbs, and bouncing back into many of the benefits from keto. This is where I’m looking for other athlete’s experiences.
That is debatable. I do think it’s possible muscle mass might be less. I know Shawn Baker will argue against this, but Mr. Baker is (1) not human and (2) got all his mass while high carb.
Cyclists seem to do fairly well with low carb.
On the other hand, even Zach Bitter (can run a daily marathon) uses carbs when he trains.
For someone like me, older, trying to regain some muscle mass, and only working out 2-3 days per week, I’m looking for faster recuperation and slightly more muscle growth.
I think there are valid reasons to want higher carbs and higher insulin while lifting (and even ketones). How much higher is a guess, though.
If you’re exercising every day, you’re in a different league and what’s possible/beneficial for me, it’s unclear whether that would be good for you.
You can always try some carbs and see what happens. For me, I thought potatoes would be a reasonable alternative, as they really aren’t that carby (one pound of potatoes is 78 g carbs, 15g fiber; so 1/4 to 1/2 a pound isn’t a bad after-workout amount). But, it turns out, my body does not like them.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#7
Most people find that after the period of fat-adaptation, their endurance performance is as good as before, often even better. Volek’s team has also shown that, while it takes a bit longer, glycogen stores of keto-adapted athletes are indistinguishable from those of carb-adapted athletes after two years. So explosive power also returns, though it takes longer than endurance.
Hi Ketosponge. I’m an athletic active sort of person who is now lean enough and trying to gain some strength and muscle. I went More Keto for a few months last year to feel the effects of full fat adaptation, although I had been heading in the direction of improving my metabolism for nearly 2 decades, so I wasn’t metabolically sick.
Since then, in a very intuitive non measuring way, I eat almost no carbs some days, a lot more some other days. I grow vegetables so I like to eat them. I’m eating way less carbs than the average population and I make animal protein the centre of every meal. I feel great and I can only assume it’s working. Every now and then I either do something to hit the reset button.
Zach Bitter seems to spend a period every year (few months?) in the off season being v low carb. Then in training uses carbs knowing that he is disposing blood sugars quickly with such high activity and good musculature. In long 100 mile races he takes in carbs only because he has the fat metabolism from his own body already at maximum oxidation. Other endurance athletes he works with sometimes run into problems by keeping their carbs super low day after day- he says- but these are highly trained lean distance runners I suppose.
Dr Jake Wilson’s (formerly with the University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) research has demonstrated that a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet is counter productive.
Greater Fat Gain and Greater Muscle Loss
Wilson’s research determined that more fat was gained and more muscle was lost on the diet.
Limited Time In Ketosis
Wilson’s research found that after a two day Carb Load, it took an individual another 3 - 4 day to get back into ketosis.
Thus, if you Carb Loaded on Saturday and Sunday, you didn’t get back into ketosis until around Thursday and Friday.
Roller Coaster Water Weight Loss/Gain
What occurs due to the initial decrease in carbohydrates in the first 5 days is water weight loss.
What research has shown is there is a decrease in performance with dehydration; that since 70% of the composition of muscle is water.
What occurs after two days of Carb Loading is water weight is regained; performance increases. That because the muscle are reloaded with water.
Personal Experience
I and two of my lifting buddies did the CKD for a while.
My weight loss in 5 days was around 6 lbs. With the two day Carb Load, I regained the 6 lbs back.
My buddies (who were bigger than me) would lose and gain around 10 lbs.
Reintroduction of Carbohydrates
Wilson’s research found the reintroduction of carbohydrates need to be slowly transitioned into. The first couple of days consuming around 100 grams of carbohydrates. Then ever couple of days increasing the number of gram of carbohydrates.
Wilson found it too many carbohydrates were consumed in coming off the Ketogenic Diet, there was a greater increase in body fat.
’ Misinformation and Lack of Knowledge
This misinformation continue to be perpetuated based on a lack of knowledge,.
Most individual who go on the Ketogenic Diet continue to train as they did when they were on the Standard American High Carbohydrate Diet.
To understand how to train, we need to look at…
The Three Energy Systems
1) The Phosphagen Energy System
This system is reliant on ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) for fuel.
Highly intensive train occur in this system; Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.
ATP is depleted in 30 seconds with most depleted in around 15 seconds.
Individual on a Ketogenic Diet or Standard American High Carbohydrate perform equally, as well. That because neither ketones nor glucose are the predominate fuel; ATP is the fuel.
2) The Glycolytic Energy System
Fairly intensity training with training times of over 30 second to 2 minutes requires glycogen; 400 meter Sprints, most Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Program, etc.
3) The Oxidative Energy System
Endurance athlete perform well on the Ketogenic Diet.
Research by Volek and Phinney have demonstrated that.
With the above in mind, let look at how we can “Game The System:” with…
Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training On Keto
This type of training primarily utilized The Glycolytic Energy System; glucose rather than ketones.
One method that allows you to circumvent The Glycolytic Energy System is…
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
Small numbers of repetition are performed in a Exercise Set with short rest period between them, the repeated. Doing so, keep the exercise primarily in The Phosphagen Energy System.
Bench Press Cluster Set Example
135 X 2 Repetitions
Rest 15 Seconds
135 X 2 Repetitions
Rest 15 Seconds
135 X 2 Repetitions
Rest 15 Seconds
135 X 2 Repetitions
Rest 15 Seconds
This completes one (1) Cluster Set with a total of 8 Repetition Performed.
Increasing Muscle Mass On Keto
Insulin is “Globally Anabolic”. That means it increases muscle mass and fat mass at the same time.
Secondly, research shows that not that much insulin is necessary to increase muscle mass. Whey protein is enough to trigger the insulin response.
Increasing Calories, Increases Muscle Mass
The key to weight loss is being in a calorie deficit.
Gaining muscle mass weight.requires a calorie surplus.
With a weight loss and weight gain program, some type of cyclical calorie intake is required for long term results. That based on The General Adaptation Syndrome; another topic for another time.
Personal Noted
Due to a being diagnosed with a metabolic condition, I went on The Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting.
Losing Weight On Keto
A few years ago, I lost around 17 lbs with The Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting. While Keto helped, the calorie deficit from Intermittent Fasting is the primary reason for my weight loss.
Gaining Weight on Keto
I then decided to gain the weight back. However, due to my metabolic condition, I had to remain on Keto.
What I did was dramatically increase my fat intake and moderately increase my protein intake (keeping my protein in the required moderate range for Keto).
I gained back 15 lbs of the 17 lbs that I lost; increasing my muscle mass and a little body fat, as well.
Summary
Energy System
The determinate factor of if you need carbohydrates is what sport or activity you are involved in.
Calorie Intake
The key to losing weight/fat or gaining weight/muscle mass revolves around calories.
One study demonstrated that increasing muscle mass occurred on The Ketogenic Diet when protein intake was 1 gram per pound of body weight.
To ensure The Ketogenic Diet was maintained, that mean the fat intake was required to kept above 70% plus of total calorie intake.
200 lb Person Example
That meant if an individual was 200 lbs, 200 grams of protein intake was necessary.
That also meant that approximately 248 gram of fat (70% of total calories) was required to remain in ketosis.
Misinformation
To reiterate, the idea that higher insulin is required to increase muscle mass isn’t necessary that continue to be perpetuated.
Faster Recovery and Muscle Growth
Without more details, it hard to access what might improve these areas
[quote=“ctviggen, post:6, topic:107731”]If you’re exercising every day, you’re in a different league
[/quote]
Ketogenic Diet Training
My training revolves around a 7 day program.
To reiterate, the primary key in training on the Ketogenic Diet is a program that specifically is designed for it; rather than maintaining the training program you had when on the Standard High Carbohydrate American Diet
It took me a year of research along with “Trial and Error:” to figure it out; which was frustrating.
Round Peg In A Square Hole
Maintaining the same training approach on a Ketogenic Diet that you performed on a Standard High Carbohydrate American Diet amount to trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
Get A Bigger Hammer
. When something didn’t fit, my father use to tell me, “If it don’t fit, force it,” His solution was, “Get a bigger hammer” and pound it in.
That what amount to what most individual doing when training on a Ketogenic Diet.
Do you have any recovery issues? I find that after several weeks of intensive weight training I’m ground into the dirt and it takes extra rest days to recover between workouts. Or do the cluster sets help with this somehow? Or are you saying that’s strictly a calorie problem?
I understand this is a very pro-keto crowd. I am pro-keto as well, but certainly can recognize benefits of different approaches. Certainly, plenty of studies can be found to support countering sides. It’s good to recognize both sides.
For endurance performance, yes. Performance can be maintained and potentially improved on a ketogenic diet.
High intensity, explosive performance (ATP energy system, and glycolytic) the presence of carbs is certainly of benefit. There are anomalies of course, but this is true for the majority. There is a reason Zach Bitter fuels with carbs during his crazy performances, and there are few (if any) keto 100% of the time athletes in sports such as power lifting, fighting, etc…
As noted in the previous post, this type of training falls into The Phosphagen Energy System. This system utilized ATP, not glucose nor ketones.
Rest Periods between set are 3 minute or longer. This ensure Muscle ATP is restored; regardless of if you are on a High Carbohydrate Diet or Ketogenic Diet. Dr Mike Israetel (Strength Training Specialist) state that in an interview.
Let’s Break This Down
First a little back ground information on me. I am a Powerlifter, former Powerlifting Meet Director/Promoter, and a former International Powerlifting Referee.
I’ve been on the Ketogenic Diet since July 2016 due to a metabolic health condition. It took me a year to understand how to write a Powerlifting Strength Training program that caters to the Ketogenic Diet that works.
Powerlifter On Keto
The percentage of Powerlifter on the Ketogenic Diet are approximately the same as in the general population.
As with the general population, very few know what the Ketogenic Diet. As with the general population, very few will ever maintain it. The more difficult something is the less likely individual are to stick with it.
The failure rate of individual who go on a weight loss diet is around 90%. That failure rate occurs with individual who go on a Ketogenic Diet, as well.
In a well formulated Powerlifting Program, some modification needs to be employed for optimal training results.
The Dogma of Athletes Need Carbs
This information continues to be perpetuated and generalized for all sports.
Athletes in Glycogen Energy System Sports need a fairly high carbohydrate intake.
Athletes in Non-Glycogen Energy System Sports function and perform just as well on a Ketogenic Diet such as Powerlifter and Olympic Lifter.
Research by Paoli on Gymnast determined these athlete performed just as well on the Ketogenic Diet as on a High Carbohydrate Diet.
