Fasting window

(Eve) #1

If one is doing the intermittent fasting for 12 or 16 hours, for example, is the fast broken if tea with milk or coffee with cream is consumed? I have finished dinner by 6.30pm latest and am fine to wait until 8.30/10.30 next day before eating, but cannot do without the morning cup of tea, which for me, requires milk! I have almond milk with a bit of cow milk to keep the carbs down. But am concerned that even that will stop the benefit of not eating food until later.
I read that alot of you do OMAD but often talk about having coffee with cream, or mct powder etc. during your non eating window - is this OK?

#2

I have read this question so many times and still don’t know the right answer as people are usually unsure about it… Or very sure but they have conflicting views…

Of course, it matters a lot why you do IF. Your milk may interfere with autophagy but if you have a secondary goal like I have to eat less… It still may :smiley: Or may not.
My goal is often to have a crunch to reach a better, bigger clean eating window at some point in the future and if some tiny milk and cream finds their way into my day at the wrong time, oh well, I don’t plan it, it’s just happen. But I try to get rid of it as I can do it and a clean fasting window is the safest. You need your milky tea so it’s different for you… But as you need it, at least you don’t need to wonder if you should give it up as it’s not realistically right. But I understand you want to know if you mess something up… The amount is probably matters. My creamy or milky drinks have very, very little of the stuff, just a few calories. No idea what it does but surely less bad as much of it…?

Fortunately I don’t need morning calories so even when I have these extras, I try to keep them closer to my planned eating window (as I don’t consider it fasting if I have extras. I am simple like that regarding fasting. if you consume calories, it’s not actually fasting. it may be fine, I don’t know but it is still not consuming no calories…).

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #3

Technically, yes, because the milk or cream contain calories. However, the amount is small and not likely to interfere with people’s fasting goals. It depends on why you are fasting.

For some purposes, even black tea or coffee will be bad. I recently had same-day surgery, and their fast required no food or liquid at all past a certain point. I was very glad that the volunteer brought me coffee after I woke up from the operation! :coffee::coffee:

Dave Feldman was taking blood samples at Ketofest 2019 to aid his cholesterol research. His requirement was to fast between 10 & 12 hours (as I recall; might have been 12-14), and while it was okay to drink water, he insisted that we not have any coffee. My buddy and I declined to give blood, since the line was very long, and we were dying for a cup! :coffee::coffee:

(Robin) #4

Anything is ok? Ask 12 of us that question and get at least e different answers.
None of us are clones and all of us have free will.
You do you.

(KM) #5

I do have one question. As far as I know, almond milk actually has fewer carbs than cow milk. Are you using a sweetened almond milk?

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #6

Several of the keto drs. say a tad of cream in coffee is okay. If you want the autophagy to continue use cream as it has no protein so the mTor effect will not happen.

I personally have had great success using just a dash of cream in coffee and not eating till noonish. When I was losing weight. In maintenance, I do have breakfast and lunch most days when not fasting. Helps me get through the morning to have a cup of coffee with dash of cream.

Good luck

#7

If you consume calories, the fast ends. If you’re fasting for fat loss, that difference is meaningless. If you’re fasting for autophagy it matters, but still minimal at that level. All comes down to what you’re trying to accomplish in the end with the fasting.

(Richard M) #8

Watch a couple of Dr. Jason Fung videos on what breaks a fast. One talks about BPC. Putting cream in coffee.

(Ohio ) #9

Coffee is a vessel to consume large amounts of cream. For me at least.

“Fasting” is a very broad. I wouldn’t consume coffee and cream and still say I’m fasting, unless it’s a protein fast! Some of us keto veterans also are reluctant to discuss intermittent fasting because it happens accidentally/unwittingly. The language gets confusing. Fasting seems to mean different things to different demographics/religions etc.

(Eve) #10

Hi, no the almond milk is unsweetened.

(Eve) #11

Thankyou for all the suggestions/feedback, everyone. As usual, very interesting and helpful. The main issue seems to be what the purpose of the fasting window is. For me it is to heal my gut, so give it a decent rest in every 24 hour cycle. I aim for a minimum of 12 hours, no milk or anything, and extend further if practical with my working day.
It’s funny the things we get so attached to - and for me it is milk in tea! I never got on with a slice of lemon in a fragrant Earl Grey!!!
I guess l should do my best to leave out everything during my fasting window, in order to get the best results.

(Central Florida Bob ) #12

FWIW, very early on, I’m pretty sure the source was Dr. Fung, I read that they had set a limit for patients of under 400 calories/day to be considered fasting.

I’m always skeptical of “one size fits all” numbers, I’m 6’ and stand next to my 4’10" wife when I say that, but on my fasting days I follow that. I typically have three teaspoons of heavy whipping cream, which the USDA says is 50 calories, so I call it 100 and don’t think about.

(KM) #13

We’ve also got people like Walter Longo doing research suggesting that a “fasting mimicking” diet does more or less the same thing as a fast, provided it’s a very specific number of calories and micronutrients.

#15

I have also read several answers to this (from “no calories at all” to “50 calories might still be fine”, though I never believed the last one).
Then there is the fasting mimicking diet which, the way I understand it, not a fast, and it breaks the fast, but its proposers say that the body reacts in such a way that the effects of the fast are more or less still achieved. I am not sold, particularly because I am not good at the 500 calories thing. To me it’s easier either not to eat, or to eat until I am sated.

In a Youtube channel (can’t remember which) a guy said something that it seemed to make a lot of sense to me: the duration of the fast influences the amount of calories needed to break it. A long fast causes the stomach to require a bigger input to “switch itself on”. Therefore, it can well be that the same person has a “range” of calories required to break the fast according to the robustness of his fast.

So,I stop eating on a Saturday at 8:30 or 9PM and then fast until Sunday lunch. But I go to church and take Holy Communion at around 9:20 AM. Does the Communion wafer break the fast? Most likely not, I would say,as it’s already 12-13hours for a minimum caloric input. But if I had eaten "midnight spaghetti” (yes, it’s a thing) I’d say it might break the very young fast. Not an expert, but it makes sense to me.

#16

Hi Eve, Another perspective is that absolutes are often difficult to sustain when trying to regulate something it’s impossible to abstain from (you’ll die if you don’t eat).

So what? - So it’s down to the individual then to set their own standards as long as they’re SMART then go for it.

Record or remember the results, test and adjust.

Took me a couple of years to realise this and I’ve still not fixed it - can an addiction that we can’t abstain from be moderated…. Stop… rabbit hole…

For me I’m content with black coffee and nothing else upto OMAD but not for longer than 2 months ish. I think you need to constantly assess and change depending on season, stress, motivation etc. Balance it out - build a sustainable routine your prepared to change.

If I don’t then I find myself drooling and dreaming in the chocolate section of the supermarket for too long.

Remember the Mississippi Experiment.

Good luck.

(Eve) #17

Thanks Mr Red Fox. Your words are wise and balanced. And the message is, as always, one size does not fit all - we must work out what is best for ourselves.
Very useful input from everyone. :blush: thanks

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #18

It’s not Valter Longo’s fasting-mimicking diet, but a well-formulated ketogenic diet puts the body into a metabolic state that is very similar to that of fasting, except with food to satiety. Benjamin Bikman likes to illustrate the parallels. The one main difference, as I understand it, is that the ketone levels in nutritional ketos generally range from 0.5 mmol/dL to 3.0, whereas fasting (starvation) levels tend to run from 3.0 to around 5.0. Ketoacidosis doesn’t even start till twice that level.