Exercise confusion!

(David Brown) #81

keto makes you weaker in a certain area. i can run, swim and cycle as good and as fast as ever. but anaerobic exercise is noticeably down on performance. its all to do with the energy systems within your body. a ketone body need oxygen to make it into the and cells to release energy. that oxygen isn’t there when weight training so your body has to use stored carbohydrates from inside the muscle.

if you dont believe me simply go to the gym and see how much you can bench press. consume 200 grams of carbs and try again the next day. you’ll be stonger guaranteed

(Nicole Silvia) #82

I think I follow what you are saying on this diet changes the metabolism in a way that correct’s for stored fat loss. That’s the appeal for me, what I don’t understand is how using fat as fuel will hinder my activities or not allow me to get stronger when I exercise. I guess I’ll have to listen to the links posted and find out for myself.

That is my fear btw, have no desire to stay on a diet that hinders my ability to workout. But I don’t see how it would. I’m now just as confused as the OP

(David Brown) #83

this. might help you. it’s very informative and he gives solutions at the end for way’s to help

(Nicole Silvia) #84

Oh, and I know I am referring to professional athletes who are lean in this discussion, but they usually get that way with the diet/exercise mentioned. I was never athletic until I got into fighting and I got very lean and fit by counting calories, high carb, low fat and I worked out like crazy… but as you say, unless you maintain that level, which most chose not to because it’s so demanding, than there needs to be something else otherwise you gain a ton of weight. Like I did. But I need to stay active, just not extreme.

(Nicole Silvia) #85

Thanks, I’ll check it out. Hope I’m not disappointed. He certainly looks like he pushes himself past a small threshold and repairs well! :slight_smile:

(David Brown) #86

I’ve met Thomas a few times and i always see him eating carbs. he said he is keto for 4 months a year and intermittent fasts for the rest.

none of his videos will directly say keto effects anaerobic exercise because he makes a fortune from the keto market. but the substance of what he is saying is true and factual.

#87

I’m not sure why you think it’s a given to assume CICO when someone discusses weight loss and exercise. My first thought on reading this question was about hormones: how exercise - and HIIT and resistance training in particular - improves insulin sensitivity.

Those studies that you mention are on sugar burners so have little relevance in the ketosphere. And Dr Fung - though I love him - discusses exercise primarily from a CICO perspective rather than a hormonal one.

If we kept the whole discussion to hormones, would that change your answer?

(Nicole Silvia) #88

Actually I did come across a video of his which said if you are into higher intensity exercise than you should not do keto. I think was called ‘Is Keto Right for Me.’

But as I’ve said, I know a professional boxer who did keto to drop a weight class for a fight. She stuck with it because she liked it, but she eats a high carb fruit before training. So it’s like an altered form of keto. I imagine she goes in ando out of ketosis regularly. I ate a bunch of carbs the other night because I was sick and desperate (still new on the diet) and I was back to producing ketones in less than 24 hours without any exercise. I mostly slept. So maybe it’s and alternative

#89

I think there are some forms of glycolitc workouts that are tough when you’re running only on fat (though if there’s an endurance component to the activity, fat burners often do so much better on that part of it - without drawing down their glycogen reserves - that they actually have glycogen available for the intense bursts). In any case, all of this is in flux while you’re adapting!

(Nicole Silvia) #90

I watched it, still a little confused. What about aerobic workouts past 20 min? All good?

(LeeAnn Brooks) #91

Yes, I think we have a point of agreement. And remember, I acknowledge exercise has a ton of health benefits. So if it’s combined with a weight loss system like Keto that isn’t soley focused on CICO, it can definitely help with body recomp and generally appearing leaner. It just can’t (or hasn’t for most) been able to compensate for the boomerang effects (lowered BMR and increased hunger hormones) when coupled with only a CICO approach to weight loss long term.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #92

I link exercise with CICO because if you’re exercising to lose weight, your goal is to increase calorie expenditure over that of calorie intake.
In other words, CICO.

If your exercising for other health benefits, then no, CICO is not an issue. But that wasn’t what the topic was about.

You’re right that it’s different for Keto people, because Keto isn’t based on CICO. You lose weight on Keto by controlling hormones. But a lot of people on Keto still think they need to do CICO. I’m not going to argue anyone out of it. I think the hormonal affects of Keto are still beneficial, but being Keto doesn’t change the two main reasons focusing on CICO fails. 1)it lowers BMR. This is true for Keto or LF dieters. Though Fung has found that fasting doesn’t have the same detrimental affects as a continuous calorie deprivation in this regards. Still, if one is on LCHF or HCLF, if he or she is eating under their BMR every day consistently, they will lower their BMR. And 2) higher exercise levels produce an increase in hunger enducing hormones. This is true no matter what Diet one follows.
And I’m not sure why you say Fung approach’s exercise from a CICO and not hormonal aspect. He links everything back to hormones. Even exercise.

#93

um, no - this is just a CICO lens talking. If you’re exercising to lose weight it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with burning calories. You can be exercising to lose weight via an uptick in metabolism or a downregulation of insulin (those would be the direct paths; the indirect ones could be linked to improved sleep, thus better circadian rhythm and improved glucose metabolism that results from that).

You and I agree about CICO; I’m not arguing any of that with you. It’s possible to address the question of exercise on keto without ever venturing into the language or framework of CO.

I’ve heard Fung talk a lot about poor use of exercise (via CICO) but not exercise from a hormonal perspective. If you have some moments that you’re thinking of, I’d love to see them because this has been a point of frustration for me. (I mean: I understand why he’s saying it because lots of folks out there are calculating how much time to spend on the stair master to earn themselves a bagel - but the hormonal effects of exercise are profound, and can have a significant impact on fat loss and weight maintenance, and I haven’t heard much of that from him.)

#94

Looks to me like this whole thread was carried by about six people, all of whom are younger, healthier and looking for ways to get fitter and not necessarily aiming to battle obesity and metabolic syndrome.

I’m a 68-year-old, w/m who had a heart attack 15 years ago that left me with bradycardia and a reating heart rate in the upper 40s. I am on beta blockers and antiarrythmia meds that leave me with the metabolism of a snail. I also had a total knee replacement six years ago.

All this was thanks to severe exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam and rolling down steep hills.

That said, HIIT workouts are very difficult but I do manage to briskly walk my dog two miles each outing on four days a week (heat/humidity in Louisiana permitting). My legs have remained strong despite knee limitations (no jogging at all).

Have been eating LCHF since April and have lost 30 pounds. IF and EF gave seems to do the trick.

At my age and condition HIIT is not a realistic option but y’all are depressing as hell with all the arguing. Y’all have me thinking I’m just better off staying fat and enjoying what years I have remaining.

BUT … you know what. Fitness begins in the mind and heart (what I have left). Get that straight and the rest of the body will follow.

Diets come and diets go, exercise gurus drop dead while jogging, bodybuilders croak from steroid abuse. And there comes a time when HIIT is no longer an option.

People, take it from an old Marine, you can adapt and overcome. You just gotta want it. How you get there is your choice.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #95

It’s in his book, the Obesity Code. The way it’s organized is it go through 5 assumptions of weight related to calories and why they are wrong and then presents the hormonal theory and why it fulfills all the areas the 5 assumptions of CICO gets wrong.

But we will agree to disagree that exercise for weight loss is enharently CICO.

(Nicole Silvia) #96

Walking is good. That’s exercise too.

I USED to be super fit. I haven’t been able to get down to a good weight since I quit fighting. I even trained and ran a half marathon in May and I’m still about 30-40 lbs too heavy. So I’m hoping to stay active for as long as I can, but not be an excessive gym rat.

I’d be happy walking my dog while being lean. I actually haven’t lost much weigh since I started keto.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #97

You’re going to need to show me evidence that exercise has anything to do with insulin. To my knowledge insulin is stimulated and controlled by what we eat, not exercise.

(Nathan Toben) #98

Phew.

This has really gone somewhere. I’m too tired from the day to shift between links and the forums to provide the studies but suffice to say that everyone’s take on exercise is relatively accurate.

Exercise is not a clear indicator of weight loss.
Exercise contributes to weight loss.

Simply put, the question is, “does the exercise that I am doing support or challenge my efforts to end the day in a moderate deficit while maintaining healthy inflammation and stress responses?”

I have coached about a dozen individuals for running races between the half-marathon and 100-mile distance and they have all lost weight during the process. This was because they were taking better care of themselves, exercising and maybe eating better.

The reason I prescribe high-volume, low-intensity aerobic development is because, when done absolutelyto the letter, an individual at any relative fitness level can safely increase their volume without dipping into fight or flight responses which set them on a pattern of unproductive inflammation/stress responses which triggers psychological eating repercussions (bad wording). Keep Calm and Slow Down, type deal. The primary stimulus in this method becomes volume, not intensity. So the biggest challenge is sustained commitment to a protracted process of improvement. But the result is inevitably a massive fat burning engine, low stress and unaffected eating psychology.

(LeeAnn Brooks) #99

Do you also work with them on diet?

I only ask because my sister and I do a running group and we have the opposite experience. When building up more miles, most of us actually gain. Not a ton, but we all complain about it. It’s an all women’s group. Not sure if that matters. The thing we all note is how much more we eat due to being ravonous when done with a long run.

(Nathan Toben) #100

This is probably inevitable but only to a very moderate degree. It is probably more an indicator that the effort level is in that “chronic cardio” zone where we are running slightly faster than conversational pace, and slower than threshold. This feels good at the moment and if you’re an experienced runner, it feels totslly managaeble. But over weeks, months, race-seasons, this dead zone of cardio is what leads to weight gain and the ever elusive “chemical injury”. The most common symptom of a chemical injury is words spilling forth from our mouths in the sequence, “I don’t want to run today”.

EDIT: blah but the whole point i’m trying to make is that distance running does not have to increase hunger unless we have specific workouts like long runs, speed sessions, depletion runs, hill workouts. Our bread and butter 3-8 mile weekday jogs can be done at a super casual pace and all they will do is provide a healthy deficit without creating insatiability.