Eating to satiety / eating to fullness / eating to "X"

(Jack Bennett) #1

During the period from April-September, I regained a certain amount of weight due to COVID and being at home all the time, not walking around as much, etc. I’ve remained with keto, with no long-term deviations. So my guess is that the weight gain is mostly due to eating (1) more and (2) more often.

During the past month or so, I’ve managed to turn around the unwanted gain via 20:4 intermittent fasting, but it’s not like weight is melting off either. (I think I’m impatient because I’ve experienced what’s possible in the past in terms of rapid weight loss via keto and IF.)

My sense is that I have some things to learn and habits to build around understanding when I’m full “enough”. In the past, doing OMAD type time-restricted-feeding, I was still able to drop weight while eating until I was “very full”. But I don’t think that’s really healthy or sustainable for the long term.

Intuition suggests I should not eat so fast that I overshoot comfortable fullness, nor should I continue eating past feeling comfortably full. I often find myself interested in eating more for pleasure even though I already feel physically full (e.g. a desire for taste or the other enjoyable experiences of eating)

It’s sort of a truism among the keto world that you can eat “as much as you want” of keto foods without gaining weight. I think that may depend on what you mean by “as much as you want”. I don’t believe it is intended to mean “stuff yourself until you feel nauseous”.

I’ve recently been influenced by this suggestion: “eat to eliminate hunger, not to feel full” (source)

Why not to eat to fullness? It’s not as accurate a measurement as a lack of hunger. Full is often, “I ate too much” and the idea is to interrupt that process repeatedly and automatically.

I’m wondering what the community thinks about this - what does “eating to satiety” or “eating to fullness” mean to you? What signals tell you when to stop? And what do you do when you crave eating more but your body feels full?

What does "eating to satiety" really mean?
(Robin) #2

This “eating to satiety” was a new term and a very new experience for me. I went in as a doubter, as willpower to stop was not even in my vocabulary. But after a couple months of sticking to the under 20 carb, and adhering to the suggestions like intermittent fasting, I suddenly felt myself not exactly realizing I was full… but realizing I did not want one bite more. Not one. As in, put down the fork and leave the table, done.
I don’t reach that point as often nowadays, as I’ve learned not to make the portions as large. Somewhere along the way, I may have lost the incredible high I got from cramming a bag of Lays Original Chips into my mouth. But it’s been replaced by a feeling of calm satisfaction and no regrets. That’s a powerful incentive to keep at it.
You may need to trick yourself at first. Like using a smaller plate. Putting the fork down between bites. I know… weird, right? Whatever, you’ll eventually realize you are there. (Assuming you have completely cut out SUGAR… which will sabotage you, even if it fits in your 20 carbs a day.) Anyway, hang in there. You got this!

#3

To me it’s means listening to my hormones that don’t work correctly and screwing up my metabolism bad in a a way that takes me almost 2yrs to fix! Eating to satiety isn’t for everyone! Most people fear overeating, for me listening to it lead me to under eating and slowing my BMR. Because I wasn’t tracking my macros at the time I had no clue how bad it really was.

On the fullness end of it I think for the most part when people are really full you should stop, but even then there are exceptions to the rule like when I’m trying to put on more muscle and need to get a certain amount of protein in daily, gotta keep eating!

(Laurie) #4

I think satiety means no longer hungry. Sure, I can find room for a huge dessert (or two) when I’m already full, but I don’t eat like that any more.

I eat the same foods often, so over time I learn how much is enough to make me feel “not hungry.” For example, I know that 3 eggs is not enough. But 3 eggs and 2 sausage patties is enough.

I pause and check how I feel after a meal. If I’m still hungry, I have a bit more food–preferably something that contains some fat, e.g., a bit of cheese. That usually does the trick.

If you feel cravings, maybe have a look at what’s causing the cravings. It could be sweeteners (natural or artificial). It could be keto snacks or keto baked goods. Or something else. We’re all different.

You can feel full but still hungry if your meal doesn’t contain enough fat.

For me, overeating is never the answer. I don’t know whether others experience this, but eating too much just makes me feel hungry again!

#5

I wouldn’t know where to begin explaining what satiety feels like for me - it’s a bit like finding ‘the one’ in that I just know.

As to this part

I enjoy cooking and eating and have found that getting that balance of hot/sour/salty/sweet/umami in my meals means I don’t often really have cravings. Bland food will see me back in the kitchen every time.

#6

I approach it from the other perspective – hunger. One quote I’ve tried to take to heart about snacking – “If you’re hungry, eat a meal.”

But. Hunger is not:

  • Eating out of habit
  • Eating to satisfy emotions
  • Mindless eating
  • Recreational eating
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

As I experience it, satiety is different from fullness. I used to eat to the point of literally being about to have a burst stomach, but would still be hungry. On keto, I stop desiring food, because I’ve had enough, even though there is still plenty of room for more in my stomach. That sense of “enough” is quite strong, but it can be overcome by the need to eat for emotional reasons.

If you are not feeling satisfied by your meals, so that you feel the need to eat until your stomach is actually full, then something might be wrong with your appetite hormones, and you may have to calculate calories, so as not to each too much.

(Jack Bennett) #8

I think in my case, there’s a feeling of “enough”. I would also call it “no longer hungry”. Some of you may know it as the feeling of having enough protein and fat and not needing more.

So the urge to eat more is almost certainly emotional and habitual: even when physically satisfied, I still want the pleasure and experience of eating some macadamia nuts or almond butter or string cheese.

#9

It’s actually fuzzy to me. It seems it’s very typical on carnivore to feel a sudden stop. You are hungry enough and/or eat with good appetite (appetite is the desire, hunger is well, hunger, they act very independently in my case) and suddenly you can’t eat another bite without forcing yourself. I have it sometimes and don’t another times on carnivore. I didn’t have this on my original keto. But I still feel the stages:
hungry -> not hungry but not satiated -> nicely satiated -> fully satiated -> too satiated (I am not very familiar with this)
But if I wait some minutes, the feeling can go backwards nowadays. I feel satiated too quickly but then my body realizes it’s still quite hungry.

I don’t know what is “full”, I use “satiation” but I do feel “full”. When I am fasting, I feel full but I can’t be that :smiley: “Stuffed” is quite full but abnormal… So I use “satiation”, feels better for me.
And I don’t know what “filling” is. Water fills my stomach but it’s not satiating and satiation matters to me, not fullness. I can be super hungry while “full”. So I don’t do much with fullness just satiation.
[I have stomach fullness. I feel if my stomach is totally full (it takes a ton of food so I only had this when I ate 1.5kg vegetable dish or drank 2 l water) or not. I don’t feel if it’s empty unless I listen to it very very much, maybe? I don’t care about my stomach state, I ignore it. When I feel “full”, it’s not my stomach state unless it’s the above, quite extreme situation. But that’s a different full.]

And I don’t need to eliminate hunger as I am usually not hungry to begin with… But it happens during a meal, ideally. I use “need for food” instead of hunger but sometimes I get slightly hungry. But not nearly every day :smiley: When I last broke my 48h fast (I don’t do longer ones as I love eating and my body loves regular feeding), I felt zero hunger all the time, even in the end. I still can figure out if eating is a good idea.

So, I don’t wait for hunger and not always stop when I feel satiated. I need my food even when my body is confused due to some new or too effective woe. I rarely use even subtle force but I just don’t starve while feeling satiated (stupid thing). So I consider this very complicated and individual. Some people track and eat accordingly because they lack hunger and satiation signals, that is very unlucky IMO. But we gotta do what we gotta do. I met people who ate according to hunger and satiation and rapidly lost weight even in underweight state… We need food and the simple eat when hungry until satiated/full is simply not right for everyone. Some people would undereat, others would overeat even on keto. In my case, my food choices matter a lot. I can be always satiated with little and much food too.

If I am full, I don’t want eating, that’s it. But I can drink tea, that’s consuming something with flavor too :smiley:
Stupid and very much NOT hedonistic compulsions simply disappear when I eat very low-carb.
My signs usually have a very little correlation but there is a very strong correlation between satiation and appetite. Higher and higher satiation levels turn off my appetite more and more (if I had any). Usually simple satiation is enough and only the worst compulsions allied with carbs can break through full satiation. That’s a tad uncomfortable but I can’t not stop there. I am not among the poor souls who keep eating when it’s painful… I need at least zero appetite to eat, negative just won’t do and I have that when a bit too full but usually way earlier.

But if I am full/fully satiated and I kinda would like to eat more but well, my state says hell no… Then I realize I messed up my food plan and I better choose something longer, more enjoyable or something next time. But I usually have absolutely no problem with it. And on extreme low-carb, eating is more like a chore quite often (but I am a newbie yet), I am almost happy if I can stop already even though my food is nice. I get satiated easily and I need the nutrients (well there is always the next meal but I have reasons I prefer OMAD now. if I eat little, I KNOW I will be hungry in no time again). It was VERY different with significantly more carbs… Like, 40g (ketosis for me).

But it’s not all about the carbs though, not even for me and I am quite sensitive to carbs, they mess up many things. Certain very low-carb (possibly zero carb) items just aren’t satiating, it’s individual, obviously. So I can eat a ton of them and still want to eat more (but preferably something that helps with satiation). I learned to minimize those items - or face the consequences. But I can’t eat even them when really full. I need to wait a few minutes, at least.

(Jack Bennett) #10

Some more thoughts and observations:

  • The desire to eat a specific food item appears to be independent of feeling hungry [1]. I suspect it is also a trained or conditioned response - e.g. I like a pack of almond butter or coconut butter for “dessert”. I notice a craving for those foods after eating, even when nominally full.

  • Slowing down my pace and eating “mindfully” is probably healthy and will likely foster fat loss. (Consciously slow down, place fork down and pause, maybe get up from the table for a moment - habits like that.) On 20:4, I find it easy to eat too fast if I eat mindlessly or while paying attention to something else.

  • The mind seems to take time to “catch up” to the body. Even when I’m physically full, my mind may be in “hunt for food” mode for 15-20 minutes. So it makes sense to eat slowly and pause regularly between bites so I don’t overeat while waiting for the mind to catch up.

Solutions/substitute behaviors

  • Instead of eating more (even healthy keto-friendly food) while waiting for the mind to catch up with the body, it might make more sense to get a zero-calorie drink and go away from the kitchen or the dining table.

  • Slowing down the pace of eating, especially when breaking a fast after 20+ hours. Use a non-caloric drink at meal time to enforce pauses between bites (i.e. bite - pause - sip - bite …).

  • Analyzing the “habit chain” of typical meals and stopping when not hungry - not being compelled to go through a specific list of foods through habit and momentum (and fueled by craving).

[1] A good coaching question I’ve heard for addressing this issue is “do you feel like eating steamed broccoli and fish right now?”

The idea is that if you really want to eat something “healthy but boring” then you’re probably still truly hungry.

If you only want to taste or experience some highly specific food - even if it’s a healthy keto food - then it’s probably just an urge or craving.

(Bob M) #11

I can honestly say that I have never felt like eating steamed broccoli and fish. If I was starving and hadn’t eaten for weeks, maybe. I’d rather eat rice cakes, chicken breast with no skin, egg whites, and zero fat ricotta (all of which I still have nightmares about, from my low fat daze), than steamed broccoli and fish.

Maybe steak would be a better substitute?

Or maybe if you baked the broccoli in an oven, with added salt and bacon chunks, then took it out and added olive oil and good balsamic, I might reconsider. Not the fish though.

(Jack Bennett) #12

I can honestly say that I have never felt like eating steamed broccoli and fish.

The question about those specific foods might not work for everyone. The intent of it is, as I understand it, to determine whether you’re really hungry, or whether you just want the pleasure of eating something that you like.

One way to rephrase it more generically could be: are you hungry enough to eat something that you find extremely plain and boring?

It’s definitely too extreme to ask if you are hungry enough to eat something you find actively repulsive. (For me, with my peanut allergy, if you asked me if I was hungry enough to eat peanuts, the answer would always be “heck no” even if I were near death due to starvation.)

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

images

Since keto, I feel neither hunger nor ‘satiety/fullness’ much any more. That’s why I don’t rely on those signals for anything.

#14

I am similar :smiley: I never liked broccoli and wouldn’t touch steamed vegetables - actually, add past time as I don’t care about vegetables since my carnivore trials, there are rare exceptions but the amount is negligible.

Fish? I would eat some salmon even when nicely satiated (almost all the time, for example now)… And no, not some boring lean fish, never, not even when I am starving unless pork ribs are included with it. I eat it then. At least I wouldn’t get way more hungry in that situation… It’s not very tempting to eat useless food even when hungry (I need much protein and much fat when I am hungry and carbs ruin everything. broccoli may have enough carbs to cause problems, I don’t know).

I heard this question with tuna, I changed it to boiled eggs then… But some people love tuna. Some people eat boiled eggs. I find tuna borderline edible so I would fast very long before I would touch it but after reading about it (being quite full), I went and ate some. No, these things can’t work for me (I can have negative appetite with huge hunger, it’s very annoying, I must say, I am so hungry and can’t eat anything! when I dislike all food in existence, that’s not an easy time either) - but the right item surely helps in many cases. It’s often boiled eggs or eggs for me despite I love eggs normally. I love them but I don’t want to snack on them when satiated. So it’s usually good to decide if I fancy something or really want food. But not always. It’s way more reliable to feel if I am hungry, if I need food as I always feel these clearly. Maybe it doesn’t work so well for others and even I had to learn to tell my stomach hunger and real hunger/need for food apart.

So it’s a question for people who are actually willing to eat extremely boring food without being starving since several days. Some of us are extremely choosy about such things. And the hunger goes away eventually. Fasting typically is way more enjoyable than a boring food. Even my body would understand I can’t say yes and would stop turning off certain parts to make me feeding it.

Common, plain food (like my boiled eggs) works better for people like me. Probably everyone should decide what works for them. I tested this question with my eggs and it often worked (I already felt if I am truly hungry or just fancy something so it was easy to check). If I am really hungry, I can eat at least a single warm (therefore much better if you ask me) softer hard-boiled egg (my fav type) with mustard and sausage… Even if I find boiled eggs super boring at that time. And even when I find this combo the best thing ever, I wouldn’t want it when satiated.

I just can’t do it with more boring food. I would rather be weak and dizzy.

But I don’t wait for hunger with my meals anyway. I don’t need it if I don’t overdo carbs.

(Jack Bennett) #15

In my research, I found an information sheet about the hunger-fullness scale that dietitians, nutritionists, and health coaches use.

The idea of a 0-10 scale of hungry to full makes sense. However, these descriptions don’t entirely line up with my experience. I suspect that this is true for most other low-carb or keto people as well.

In my view, this text is entirely based in a high-carb, eat-every-two-hours worldview. The idea of a moderate intermittent fast would probably scare the people who wrote this. Just look at the entries for 0 and 1 (the highest levels of hunger). It doesn’t sound so much like “hunger” as “severe hypoglycemia”. Gosh, better eat every hour or two to keep your blood sugar up, amirite?

Also, if you look at 6-8 (lightly full to full), it suggests that you will be hungry again in 2-3 hours. Say what? When I’m comfortably full, I don’t need to eat for a lot longer than that. (Emotional or recreational eating aside, of course.)

I’d say I go from around a 2-4 (“lightly to very hungry”) most days right before mealtime. This is after a 20 hour fast so it makes sense that I’m pretty hungry. After a meal, I would be at a 7-8 (“nice and full”) after mealtime. However, my stomach doesn’t hurt when I’m hungry and I’m generally able to continue fasting if needed. And most of the day I’m right around a 5 or so - not hungry, not thinking about food. This is likely due to abiding in the fat burning state and not needing a periodic burst of glucose to feel OK.

The hunger and fullness scale describes different levels or varying degrees of hunger and fullness. It is a tool that can be used to help you identify how hungry or full you are, or to help you know when to start or stop eating.

Fullness

10 - Sick: Uncomfortably full, feel sick.
9 - Stuffed: Past the point of comfort, full, stomach may hurt.
8 - Full: Comfortably full, but would not want to eat more. Satisfied.
7 - Moderately Full: Satisfied, comfortable, will likely be hungry again in 2-3 hours.
6 - Lightly Full: Satisfied, will likely be hungry again in 1-3 hours.

Neither hungry nor full

5 - Neutral. Neither Hungry nor Full.

Hunger

4 - Lightly Hungry: Starting to think about food, deciding what sounds good to you, what you would like to eat, and maybe stomach gently growling.
3 - Moderately Hungry: Thoughts about food increase, stomach starts to growl more, need to get something to eat increases.
2 - Very Hungry: Stomach growling, stomach may hurt, need to get food now, everything is starting to sound good.
1 - Ravenous: Difficulty concentrating, low energy, headache, everything sounds good, past the point of comfortable hunger.
0 - Empty: Uncomfortably hungry, stomach hurts, headache, difficulty concentrating, fatigue, dizzy, weak, everything sounds good.

It is normal for your hunger and fullness to go back and forth all day long. Staying in moderate hunger and fullness ranges (from a 3-7) will help you avoid extremes in hunger and fullness (0-10). If you start eating when you are lightly-moderately hungry you are more likely to stop eating when you are lightly to moderately full. If you start eating when you are empty or ravenous you are more likely to eat until you are stuffed or sick.

The hunger and fullness scale can serve as a guide to help you mindfully connect to your body about when to eat. It can also help you avoid extremes in your hunger and fullness, help sustain your energy, and help you feel your best.

(source)