Dr Stephen Phinney opposes IF

(mark whittaker) #21

can you elaborate? can you cite some of this new information?

(Todd Allen) #22

Here’s a new video of Phinney talking about fasting with a focus on his concerns. A big issue is the potential to lose significant amounts of muscle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1r8ffLDFcE

I think the muscle loss worry is over blown for most, but have found through experimentation with various fasting approaches bracketed by dexa scans that it is significant for me. I lose weight fastest and get better improvement of health biomarkers with repeated true fasts of 3 to 5 days duration but I do better improving body composition with near fasting sustaining a recommended level of protein intake.

(Brian) #23

I read that a couple of times but am still not 100% sure I’m getting it.

Are you saying that you maintain your muscle mass best when ingesting only protein but nothing else? When you say “recommended level”, is that the same as what your normal daily intake of protein would be according to, say, a formula like 0.8g/Kg of LBM? (Not necessarily that amount, but that idea?)

Do you feel like an intermittent fast that’s short is even significant with muscle loss, something like one meal a day or alternate day fasting? Or does it need to be longer than that to really impact muscle mass?

By your comments, you seem to have been around this block before.

(Vladaar Malane) #24

I’d gladly give up some muscle, to lose 20 pounds of weight. Even with some muscle loss, I guarantee I would put up a few more pull ups with 20 pounds less on my body. Not that I agree there is muscle loss. If there is it is very tiny amount. I’ve Extended Fasted before and not noticed any affect on my work outs or muscularity.

(Todd Allen) #25

I haven’t really established a “normal” level of protein intake. My lean body mass is roughly 50 kg. A recommended range of protein intake say 0.8 to 1.2 g per kg lean mass would mean 40-60 g daily. Roughly double that 80-120 g daily seems to be my sweet spot when trying to gain muscle without gaining fat. 40-60 g per day protein appears to be a good range for me to slowly lose fat without losing much muscle.

When true fasting I lose 3 to 4 lbs / week, but nearly a third of the weight loss is muscle and time spent regaining the muscle makes it slower than near fasting where I lose a bit under 2 lbs/week but it’s almost all fat and I can do it more often. Lately I’ve been targeting about 2 lbs / month of weight loss which has been taking roughly 8-9 days of near fasting monthly. When near fasting I skip high fat meats and nuts and stick to leaner choices but my protein sources all include some fat and some include carbs too such as whey protein concentrate, fish, liver and eggs. I also eat salad greens and other things that are mostly carbs. A near fast day might be 50 g protein, 40 g fat and 10/15 g net/total carbs, ie ~600 calories vs 1800 to 2000 calories for maintenance when I might eat 100 g P, 150 g F, and 40/60 g net/total carbs.

Everything is somewhat fuzzy because I’ve only be doing the dexa scans every 3 months and I’ve never stuck strictly to a given regimen for the entire 3 months. Dexa scans are imperfect and in between I fill in with less useful measurements from a scale, tape measure and skin fold calipers. I have a genetic muscle wasting disease which is why I obsess over body composition but likely means I’m a bit of an outlier in terms of what optimizes results for me versus others.

(Kaiden) #26

Not true.

Dr. Phinney opposes extended fasting, not intermittent fasting. Most ketogenic people can go 24 hours without being that hungry. He’s talking about 48 hours or more.

(Justin Jordan) #27

At this point, though, we have a loooooooot of people doing extended fasts by the Phinney definition, and if the muscle loss were as dire as he thinks it is, it would absolutely be noticeable even to the layman by now.

Brenda Zorn would be bed ridden.

(Brian) #28

… which is one reason I particularly appreciate Todd’s reply a couple of posts above. Thanks, Todd!

(RL) #29

I’ve searched, I promise I have, but I guess not well enough, so I’ll ask here.

What is “near fasting”?

(Vladaar Malane) #30

@brownfat how do you know that you are losing a third of the weight as muscle from fasting?

Is that based on dexa scan or just your opinion?

I’ve done 7 day fast, and felt just as strong in workouts and see no muscle mass loss. Maybe all people are affected differently though just as we lose fat from different parts of the body?

(Vladaar Malane) #31

Also, not saying this is the case for everyone, but for some people arm size, chest size can often contain a lot of fat. So that it seems like your losing muscle, but strength remains the same, only fat is getting used. At least that is sometimes the case, not always.

(Todd Allen) #32

It’s my term for what I’m doing which is influenced by but not exactly a “protein sparing modified fast”. It’s also similar calorically but higher in protein than Valter Longo’s trademarked “fasting mimicking diet”. I think of these and any other approach to fasting where you are still ingesting some calories, such as the keto popular fat fasts where people consume coconut oil, MCTs, butter and broths all as forms of “near fasting” because ones caloric intake is closer to true fasted than it is to maintenance as opposed to typical dieting where one rarely restrict calories that aggressively.

(Todd Allen) #33

Yes, I’m mainly tracking body composition by dexa. One of the effects of my disease is a tendency to accumulate fat in muscle instead of subcutaneously which makes the results of tape measures and skin fold calipers less useful.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #34

My two cents? I’m a seven week newbie. I can’t even think about fasting. If it involved only some hunger that would be fine. But even at TMAD I am battling diarrhea. Trying to tweak fat. My body, at least at this point, needs food. So for now, I am listening to my body. Perhaps after I am fat adapted…

(Vladaar Malane) #35

Ah didn’t know. Maybe it is different for different people then like fat loss. Never know where you will lose the fat.

(back and doublin' down) #36

So…I’m not so sure about Dr. P. Fasted 86 hours, ending Saturday. Weigh In yesterday I was down 2.4 lbs of fat and UP 2 lbs in lean muscle mass. YMMV of course. I’ll take my n=1 results and keep fasting!

(Karen) #37

Ditto. I keep reading this. What is near fasting. Did it auto correct mere??

NM I see the explanation

(icky) #38

What I see this blog entry saying is this:

In brief, any regimen involving fasting beyond 24-hours has not been proven effective in sustaining weight loss long term. And while it can temporarily speed weight loss, this comes with a long-term price. After just one day of fasting, you begin to lose body protein from lean tissue – from places like muscle, heart, liver, and kidneys. These organs and their functions are things that we want to preserve, and definitely should not be given up lightly. So while you may lose weight according to the scale, part of it will be at the cost of your important, metabolically active tissue.

I read this as saying that fasting FOR long-term weightloss is not the best approach.

Fasting has certain health benefits, but as Dr Phinney writes those advantages must be weighed against the disadvantages of fasting, eg. using your body’s protein stores/ tissues.

I do fasting for health reasons (inflammation, immune system, food intolerances) and I think it’s excellent for that.

I see people using extended fasting as a weightloss “trick” and while I think that’s okay, I think it’s not ideal.

I am TOFI (but have many overweight friends who have struggled badly with SAD and so called weight loss diets for decades) so I am informed about many of the issues involved, but am not emotional about the issues like many people who have struggled with weight understandably are.

I think sustainable weightloss needs a far more long-term, sustainable approach, like Keto.

A “quick fix” like fasting can be used, if used carefully and sensibly, but I agree with Phinney that the benefits are probably minimal, if what you want to achieve is SUSTAINABLE and LONG-TERM weightloss.

This is how I understand the blog entry.

(icky) #39

When you add this into the mix (also from the blog entry):

The other obvious safety concern with fasting, whether intermittent or sustained, is its effects on medication requirements to manage diabetes, heart disease, or high blood pressure, and possible anti-coagulation (aka blood thinners) as well.

I can understand his verdict for his patients is “Don’t do it, just stick to a Keto diet”

And I’m saying that at someone who adores EF, does it several times per year and has had great success with it for non-weightloss issues. :smile:

(icky) #40

Yeah.

And I think that people who desperately want to lose weight can push themselves and their body too hard.

During EF, you body will give you signals if you are willing to listen.

But if you are “determined” to keep going because you have this big weightloss goal, then the damage you do - even if its limited - is just not going to balance with the advantages of EF or IF compared to Keto.

And for ppl who are overweight and may have damaged their metabolism with starvation diets in the past, fasting could just add more problems and confusion.

So as a general rule of thumb, I think this is okay.

And anyone who chooses to fast anyway and gets good, informed, detailed information eg from Dr Fung is doing a good thing too.