Dr. Bikman's Lecture on Insulin vs Glucagon

science
fasting
(Diane) #21

Good to know. Thanks!

(Shawn) #22

I think some people are different. When I did the Atkin’s diet I was still hungry every few hours. I actually got sick of eating meat. Keto is much better for me. I hardly feel the need to eat.

(matt ) #23

No offense to Jimmy but the entire design of that week long “PSMF” was a joke.

(Michele) #24

Please post a link to the Jimmy PSMF.Thank you.

(matt ) #25

It’s all over FB. I have been watching via screenshots and such as I had to get out of the keto fighting on FB.

(Mark Rhodes) #26

At 210, 15.7%BF and 54 years old I find my protein to average at 130g. If I eat less I find I actually snack and eat more of everything else. I also have days were I eat between 200- 275g of protein keeping fat to 200-300g. I lift heavy 3x a week and over the last 18 months have seen my LBM go up almost 1 for 1 with fat lost. I am currently 5 pounds lighter than when I started but changed body composition by 12%. Major Win!.

I also belong to a small group (55 people on FB- EF Buddies) and we actively pursue 3-7 day fasts and do many n=1. The majority who have used carnivore to get over a stall is pretty convincing that protein should not be feared.

(Solomom A) #27

Does that happen on a Ketogenic diet? I would love to know. Also Bikman’s recommendation is nothing outrageous, 1 to 2gm per Kg. Rosdale used to recommend 0.6gm /lb equivalent to about 1.33gm/Kg that is if my memory serves me right. Pls correct me if I am wrong. Maybe he used per kg rather than pound.

(Don) #28

So Arkins was right and protein is not a worry? No need for moderate protein(whatwver thst memss)?

(Don) #29

Rosedale said 0.6 kg per kg of lean body mass.

(Adam Kirby) #30

Was it intended to be a PSMF though? I don’t think so. It looks like more of a 3:1 protein diet that was a tad hypocaloric.

(matt ) #31

I think the intent and the design did not match up. I didn’t dig too deep but what he was eating and the fact that he only did it for a week made me scratch my head.

(Adam Kirby) #32

I listened to his initial podcast with Ted Naiman and the intent was to replicate some 3:1 protein:fat study that Ted has talked about, and Jimmy mentioned he ended up eating like 1800 cals a day. Definitely not a PSMF in my book, just a very high-protein diet experiment.

(Nicole Sawchuk) #33

I really do think this is the case and the reason why Dr Fung and Dr Bikman are both correct. In general we have to stop saying one way fits all. This comes down to fasting, vegan, carnivore, etc…as long as its whole foods, no sugar, everything is person different depending on what stage they are in the “game”.

Like I said, I started out protein restricting with great results (other than lost all my hair after 3 months). But now I am seeing results with eating protein to satiety. I think I am less insulin resistant. Honestly, its not like I am going crazy with protein either. Its just the macro I focus most on my plate now.

I think you do what is working for you, and when it stops working, don’t be scared to try increasing your protein intake!

(Nicole Sawchuk) #34

I really hope he emphasizes that this was not good for him but does not mean others should not try it if they are struggling. Why are we so quick to dismiss potential tools for our toolbox just because one doesn’t work for you personally?
I believe that eating copious amounts of fat really works for some people at keeping them full and helping them lose weight! It just didn’t work for me. But doesn’t mean I don’t advise people to try it when they are struggling.

(Solomom A) #35

What Phinney said, in case someone wants to know.

phinney2
phinney2.PNG864×534 182 KB

https://youtu.be/2KYYnEAYCGk

#36

I couldn’t agree more. Ted’s idea of 3:1 protein to fat ratio is for weight-loss, but not at the accelerated level one might see on a PSMF. Jimmy definitely botched the design some, he’s looking for PSMF results while not getting even close to the required macros of a PSMF. The trial should have been at least a month in my opinion, maybe longer. Keto folks should understand as well as anyone that there is an induction phase when starting a new WOE.

Everyone’s different, yada, yada, but it’s hard for me to believe Jimmy really feels that crappy eating 270-grams of protein and 90-grams of fat per day. Especially considering he can fast with ease. Obviously there is some serious insulin resistance going on but he is hardly starving himself. It’s pretty clear he’s not going to be open to new ideas. Best case he says he lost a few pounds but was miserable eating high protein and doesn’t care about weight loss that much anyway. That’s my assumption anyway but we’ll see. Overall, they started-out flawed. I think even Ted noticed that. I like the part when he says “so your ideal body weight for your height is 270lbs?” And Jimmy backpedals and says someone else did his math.

http://www.ketohackingmd.com/7-protein-hack-with-special-guest-dr-ted-naiman/

(Adam Kirby) #37

That’s the interesting thing though. Jimmy said his fasting insulin was 14.1 or something. Which is definitely too high but it’s not ludicrous, and combined with his ridiculously low blood glucose I can’t imagine his HOMA-IR is actually all that bad.

(Julia Wilson) #38

@Rian Yeah one week is not an acceptable time frame for any n=1 experiment. We see that repeatedly in the clinical trials that have been conducted for ketogenic diets. Induction can take weeks or even months.

I think you can make the argument that it is on a person-by-person basis. It’s become more clear than nutrition is not a “one size fits all” science, but it is validating to see clear science that supports a ketogenic eater’s decision to increase their protein if that works for them. I see no signs of weight gain with my protein intake and it ranges somewhere between 100-130 g/day depending on my hunger/fasting (5’7" female 160 lb).

#39

I agree, I just wish I’d known it was safe and potentially effective to increase protein intake before now. Not saying it’s right or wrong but the general vibe I’ve gotten from almost all my sources of keto information is that too much protein is “wrong” or “not a ketogenic ratio”. For every suggestion to increase protein there are 300 suggestions to reduce it. I think even the concept of “moderate protein” has people cautious thinking too much is bad. Moderation implies the possibility of excess, without defining what is safe or moderate I’m inclined to err on the side of less is better. In reality the upper limit for many people is far higher than generally accepted on even this forum for example.

If anything I think it’s time to more widely acknowledge that keto for weight loss is a very different thing than keto for maintenance or keto for the therapeutic effects of ketones. They all seem to get lumped together. Sure they are all ketogenic but the difference between 20% of calories from protein and 50% is huge in my assessment.

(Adam Kirby) #40

Agreed and most of the reasoning behind it is this incomplete idea of protein disabling ketogenesis. And Ben makes the great point, if that actually happened, insulin spiked and stopped ketosis, you’d be in a severe energy crisis since you aren’t taking in carbs. I’m glad someone has articulated the biology behind this.