Just got done listening to this:
They go over a ton of material, including mTOR (which causes it to go up more, high carb or protein in a low carb context?), insulin/glucagon ratio, effects of ketones (if you have ketones, you have low insulin), building muscle, etc.
If you have time, it’s a worthwhile listen.
Thank you for the link, Bob.
How I Increased My Testosterone by 290% without hormone therapy or sport supplementation
I am seeing this all the time when people get their blood work on the carnivore diet?
Natural endogenous testosterone is almost a miraculous hormone when it comes to fixing things and the same goes for the girls?
I wonder what is causing that?
290% natural increase is beyond significant; that’s a mind blowing increase? 290% seems to be what almost all men’s blood tests have been showing on carnivore?
That sounds like a severe survival mode increase however maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be naturally?
I’ve observed men who practice very very long-term sperm/semen retention who cannot even achieve that kind of increase, most likely because of diet?
Not that semen/spermatozoon retention has anything to do with testosterone but it is produced more so in higher secretions in the testicles. But other parts of the the body produce testosterone also e.g. gut microbiome, pituitary, adrenals also create it? The protein only diet is doing something to something; which is it[1]?
Strange?
It’s almost as if both men and women are being estrogenized by food and chemicals in the environment?
Footnotes:
[1] “…While this doesn’t sound like a problem, elevated free thyroid hormone shuts down receptor sites and can therefore cause hypothyroid symptoms, despite high free thyroid hormone levels. The most common cause of this is elevated testosterone in both men and women. …” …More
Every time I listen to Bikman and after listening to the entire podcast on the thread; I’m finding some holes in his postulations one being that every time you eat a carb your elevating insulin outside or above his glucagon to glucose ratio hypothesis about protein. (he seems more emotional than scientifically wired?)
Maybe he forgot that insulin is not always required for uptake of glucose and that glucose from eating carbohydrates can be equal to eating protein?
A carb/fiber is way more ketogenic (astronomically) or more long lasting as a fuel source than eating fat, something protein cannot do, especially if you eat too much protein while in ketosis, then your still burning more glucose than ketones for fuel, rendering and waging his argument against carbohydrates as very very weak?
If you over-eat protein, your going to burn sugar period! …and shorten your life-span in the process even if you reverse your diabetes or whatever is ailing you?
I think he also mentioned that BHB ketones also cause what fat to turn to brown fat. This has me wondering about MCT oil a few times a week.
This has been on my mind also:
Dr. Gary & Bikman also mentioned something about Chris Masterjohn & Gary Taubes (not sure if that’s who it was as it was hard to find the rewind point on the podcast) arguing about whether or not it’s healthy to be constantly in Ketosis? (I think the two are still setting up a second video get-together to debate this?)
Both of them should know people go into ketosis when they sleep if they are metabolically fit? (despite a higher carbohydrate intake based on physical activity, muscle volume and sedentary non-locomotion are all factors)
The issue is really about eating too much processed carbohydrates?
Masterjohn is correct; nature never intended us to be constantly in ketosis and the body will try to prevent it from being in a high state of constant ketosis after the adaption period has been exhausted over a period of time because ketosis can be catabolic and deadly if you keep trying to constantly force it into a deeper state especially when under physical (illness, injury, genetic susceptibility) or emotional stress which can result in death (ketoacidosis)?
image linkThe big three mechanism of caloric metabolism:
- Are you oxidizing protein?
- Are you oxidizing sugar?
- Are you oxidizing fat?
Are you aware of oxidizing them evenly and efficiently?
Why would you want to oxidize too much of one but not the other? (the key to longevity in my opinion)
Catabolic Diet (Combination of Ketogenic Diet and Gluconeogenic Diet)
Published on Feb 20, 2018
Dr. Mungli: Catabolic diet, this simply means the food we eat enhance more catabolic pathways than anabolic pathways. Idea here is to keep anabolic hormone insulin at low levels and catabolic hormone glucagon at high levels. in this video I have explained the diet that I’m following currently to keep myself in predominantly catabolic condition by significantly lowering the intake of carbohydrates in my diet and adding more fat, greens, and moderate proteins to maintain the fuel and nutrient needs of my body.
@ctviggen Never heard of Peak Human podcast before. Will listen to this episode and take time to read through this thread. Many thanks for pointing us in an interesting direction.
This is unsupported by evidence. I’ve eating 200+ grams of protein in one meal, and no blood sugar rise. I have a normal glucagon response. His insulin/glucagon ratio works for me. If there IS a rise in blood glucose, I have not been able to find it.
Part of the problem with a lot of these podcasts, is that they’re really speaking to the cognoscenti. When they discuss certain issues, they jump right in with nary any background. My wife, for instance, would have no idea what they were talking about. Meanwhile, I, who have done tons of research online and listened to many podcasts in this area, have no problem with what they are saying.
Other people, like Dr. Davis also use crappy studies to suggest that being in ketosis long-term is not good:
I have found zero personal detriment to being in ketosis all the time. However, it’s quite easy to get kicked out. Any holiday, birthday, celebration, anniversary, I eat foods that kick me out of ketosis. At least 10 times a year, I’m out of ketosis.
And this whole line of argument ignores those carnivores who are in ketosis for decades with no ill effects.
This is something I keep coming back to…I have certainly been predominantly catabolic at times on keto, when I was undergoing a lot of stress before my divorce, and just had no appetite and still staying very active. I got dangerously lean. So reduced overall energy intake will lead to a catabolic state while eating keto foods- even if eating towards the higher end of the protein macros. Of course you feel pretty miserable when you’re lean and not eating enough. So for other people that are close to their goal weight/body comp, I think a successful strategy to lean out a bit would be to up non starchy veg intake, with not a lot of added fat, and moderate amounts of naturally fatty meat. So keeping protein on the lower side, don’t crazy with added fat, and bulk up on veggies. Might cause a little bloating or gas…
but it would keep hunger levels in check while leaning out. For me, fatty beef is the most satiating food. But I have noticed I’ve gained some weight lately eating more meat and less veggies. That’s pretty much all that’s changed really. I feel like my muscles are bigger but I am also not as “wiry” looking, lol…I’m on the thin side for my height (5’7”) and can probably go between 120 and 130. I don’t weigh myself. But if I want to have more of that very lean runner’s look, I’d go to more veggies and less fatty meat, as described in the video
That is because when you over-eat protein; the insulin; being that you are producing enough insulin is coming in and cleaning up (insulin sensitive?) the glucose that is probably why you see no rise in glucose, but it is probably not as much insulin as if you were eating refined carbohydrates. So you are really burning sugar, the less protein (activates glucagon) you eat will release glycogen from storage, the more protein you eat, the more glycogen storage will be replenished (gluconeogenesis) by insulin just as if you were eating carbohydrates?
Additionally replenishing glycogen storage would defeat the purpose of burning body fat if you are over-eating protein? Then there is the mystery of insulin not always being required for the uptake of glucose (Manninen)?
No, not ignored, they are missed or missing observations?
Every one who is human has been in ketosis for decades or all their life, problem is, you won’t see that type of ketosis with a blood meter because they being used efficiently.
If your seeing high ketones on a meter after a couple of decades, just the fact your seeing them that may not be such a good thing especially if they are high because you are producing too many?
Over-eating carbohydrates and protein will kick you out of the excessive ketones you can see with a blood meter type of ketosis?
You stop going into the type of ketosis you can’t see with a meter?
I’m a Type 1 diabetic for 37 years and definitely see a rise in glucose with protein. I have to take insulin to cover. The ratio is about half the amount I need for carb. There is no doubt gluconeogenisis happens. However, I dont know if it happens to absolutely everyone eating Keto/Carnivore. How would someone who isn’t a diabetic know if this was occurring if their own body is producing insulin normally???
Exactly. They couldn’t know. They can test their glucose all they want and should expect a relatively flat line from protein no matter how much gluconeogenesis is occurring. Blood glucose goes up precipitously in response to exogenous carbohydrates in people with normal metabolisms because the glucose hits their blood but the full insulin response lags. Protein has the opposite impact. Exogenous protein is followed by the insulin/glucagon response which then leads to gluconeogenesis. There is zero expectation of a big blood glucose surge from a high protein meal and this has been documented in the scientific literature for decades. Nevertheless, the area under the curve of the insulin response is not at all flat.
This leads to the question of how one might test for the insulin effect at home. I’m thinking maybe something like the GKI or Boz ratio might work.
