I recently re-read Ted Naiman’s P:E diet and listened to some of the recent Diet Doctor podcasts. I was on my own parallel journey.
I have been keto for more than one year with no cheats save for one day trying 10gr carbs pre-workout.
Like many, after months of keto I had so much energy and began going to the gym all over again. My attempt to re-build muscle got me focused on protein.
For the past couple weeks I have cut my fat dramatically while maintaining or slightly increasing protein to 1 gram per pound lean body mass.
My hunger has been fine. My weight is back down to 171 lbs (5’8 muscular male) after reaching that level but rebound to 177 lbs amid loads of strength training over the past several months. As I lost that 6 lbs I at least maintained but likely increased lean body mass. My fasting blood sugars seem to have improved.
Before I would add butter, etc to my meals but now eat more akin to a PSMF. I debate adding some pre-workout carbs…
Did you re-introduce carbs? I worry about the slippery slope but at the same time I am not sure being constantly glycogen-depleted is the best case scenario. I love to lift and go to the gym at least 6 times per week. I once ate exactly 10 grams of Smarties (dextrose) before the gym and did better on my bench but if I were to add carbs, candy hardly seems optimal.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#4
Prof. Jeff Volek and his team demonstrated in a recent study of keto- and carb-adapted athletes that glycogen stores are identical regardless of diet. The keto-adapted athletes had all been eating a ketogenic diet for at least two years when the study began. I know that athletes on these forums have found that explosive performance lagged even after endurance performance had returned (typically six to eight weeks on keto), so glycogen apparently takes longer to recover than the process of keto-adaptation takes.
Thanks Paul. I noticed that my fasting blood sugars have tended to be high on keto. I wonder if that has to do with my body trying to replete glycogen stores - I tend to workout fasted in the morning and notice subsequent blood sugars of 102-119; post-prandial BG levels late in the day are more like 85.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#6
Serum glucose tends to be higher in the morning (search the forums for “dawn phenomenon” if you are interested) and ketones lower. Later in the day, serum glucose drops and ketones rise. This appears to be how the body is designed to function.
I did, I try for enough to keep glycogen but without spilling over. At one point it’d sent me into a downward spiral when I tried, but when I started with what is typically considered the good ones (starchy not sugary) that didn’t happen. I now to a Hybrid of basically CKD/TKD and even a little Paleo at this point. My lifts are night and day better and maintaiing an A1C of around 5.0 give or take. I also found that not using food even the all dextrose ones (tried gummy bears for a while) wasn’t a good idea. You don’t want your brain to link the sugary ones to food. I started using Intracell 7 as a preworkout It’s got a couple fast carbs in there including carb10 which is a low glycemic, yet fast like detxose carb for keeping glycogen up. Got that on the recommendation of Rob Goodwin which is a keto bodybuilder, that unlike many of the others that use that term actually has a good physique. I think all keto lifters should give him a look. He has a different, but very effective way of doing things. Most of the people he trains are in shows and usually ranking pretty high, all on Keto or LCHF. As you know, many claim their lifts are just as good on standard keto, having lifted for years prior, and doing strict keto for years, I don’t just disagree with that, I call straight up BS.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#8
Teasers:
Despite intuitive reasoning: no carbohydrate from food = less glycogen storage, research has indicated that during endurance exercise, nutritional ketosis alters substrate competition and reduces glycolysis, promoting the preservation of glycogen resources to enhance muscle performance…
More generally, ketosis related to both chronic high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet, or KE intake, decreases glycogen breakdown at rest as well as during exercise…
Effects of KD on muscle mass control pathways. IGF-1 = insulin-like growth factor-1; HGF = Hepatocyte growth factor; IL-6=Interleukin-6; NO = Nitric Oxide; PA = phosphatidic acid; FAK = Focal adhesion kinase; IRS-1 = Insulin receptor substrate-1; PI3K = Phosphoinositide 3-kinase; AKT = protein kinase B; TSC = Tuberous sclerosis protein; Gap activity toward Rags 1; GATOR2, Gap activity toward Rags 2; AMPK = 5’ adenosine monophosphate- activated protein kinase; Rheb = Ras homolog enriched in brain; mTORC1 = mammalian/mechanistic target of rapamycin complex 1; p70s6k = S6 kinase beta- 1; 4EBP1 = 4E-binding protein 1; GDF11 = Growth differentiation factor 11; TNFα = Tumor necrosis factor α ; ROS = Reactive oxygen species ; NF kB = nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells ; MuRF1 = Muscle RING-finger protein-1 .
You’re likely wrong. If you could bench 400 pounds before keto, why can’t you do this after keto? Case in point: Dr. Shawn Baker. Still massively strong.
Now, whether you could get to that level without carbs (or drugs), that’s a different issue. But if you take long enough to transition to keto, I see no reason why you can’t maintain or improve your lifts.
If you want to try more carbs, I say go ahead.
For me, I work out usually between 6-7am, and have my first meal at about 10am. About 3 hours after the end of my work out. only 3 days a week, though. About 1 hour, 10 minutes for body weight training to failure each set. Another day 1/2 BW, half aerobics. Third day, abs + aerobics.
But I’m also older, with a torn rotator cuff, so I’m not that interested in getting huuuuge, as I was when I was in my teens and 20s. I just like to exercise.
I think insulin plays a big part. My fasting BG hasn’t much improved on keto (strictly speaking)…but if I eat a can of tuna or take a whey shake at 11AM and measure 30-60 minutes later I notice my blood sugars are at 85 or so… if, on the other hand, I carry on fasting or just have HWC in my coffee it seems my blood sugar stays at ~112 or so into the afternoon.
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#13
Easy, I couldn’t maintain the muscle I had. Same as everybody else. How is Shawn Baker an example? All his records were set pre-keto/carnivore. Saying you’re massively strong means nothing. Even when keto I had above average muscle mass for somebody my size, but it was far less than it was pre 4 yrs of keto.
Glycogen is your muscles fuel source, lower that and your lifts suffer. Have that be the case for an extended time and you loose muscle mass since you can’t lift at the same level. Then without the extra fuel reserve you can’t lift hard enough or long enough to put it back on. Yes, I’ve read all the stuff that when keto you eventually have the same amount of muscle glycogen, and again, BS!
Me and you are doing VERY different workouts! You can without question do what you’re doing zero issues on keto. I’m lifting heavy and long 6x week and lifting for size and physique. I also have 2 crap AC joints, 1 pissy rotator cuff, and a recurring L5/S1 disc herniation. I’m very familiar with working out and around injuries. That doesn’t really change much. I’m not looking to be huge either, but bigger.
The only real people that can be consider Keto bodybuilders would be Robert Sikes, which is a pretty small dude, pretty amazing he’s got his pro card, pretty sure I’ve got more muscle on me than he does. He’s way more cut up than I am, but he doesn’t have a lot of size to him at all.
We had Danny Vega, which when he went from CDK to keto he lost size, then he went carnivore and lost more size. Still looks good, but you really think he chose to loose muscle mass willingly?
You have Logan DelGado (Goodybeats) who did some impressive stuff, but the last 2 years has blown up! He added more carbs in and stopped being as strict.
Then you have people like Rob Goodwin who has a very impressive physique, is in his low 50’s and still kills it in the gym, the difference? TKD. It fits every single time.
If you were bigger in your 20’s, you know how much of a difference a workout is with a better glycogen load. If your muscles can take more of a beating, you can push them further, if you can push them further can grow them bigger. It’s really that simple. If people want size, they’ve gotta have some sort of TKD/CKD thing going.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#17
This is news to me. I was under the impression that it was protein intake that built muscle, and fat intake that fed muscle (unless, of course, there is excess stored fat that can be shed).
amwassil
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.)
#18
Here’s the deal: people gain muscle mass a variety of ways. When someone MAINTAINS that mass, that’s different.
For instance, Mike and Ray Mentzer were bodybuilders. Here’s Mike:
They both switched to high-intensity, short lifting sessions. They both advocated those. The knock against this is that they didn’t get big that way, so could they get big doing short lifting exercises? There’s no way to know. (Back then, the bodybuilders were doing so-called “double splits”, where they would go in the gym in the morning to work out certain muscle groups, then come back in the evening and work out different groups. Then switch groups the next day, and work out 6 days a week. Tons of sets, think 10 sets of squats, were de rigueur.)
And it’s further complicated by the fact that someone like me, who was big at one time, has a much easier time regaining muscle. In my 20s, I was a pseudo-bodybuilder (only had so much time and so much genetics) and got fairly big. Not “I have to sleep on my back because my arms are so thick” big, but pretty big. While I was never strong (no genetics), I remember 1 rep maxes of 315 or so bench, 400-500 squat and similar dead lift. (And someone reading this might say, “That sounds strong to me!”. If so, looks at power lifting records for, say, a 165 pound male power lifter).
And I see things like “You have to overeat to gain muscle (unless you’re a novice)!” I’ve seen plenty of studies showing this is not true, and in fact, I’ve gained muscle mass and strength while losing weight. Am I a novice? Who knows?
I also think the number of studies on people who lift and who are low carb are zero. Phinney and Volek showed similar glycogen stores in cyclists, but no one - to my knowledge - has done something with body builders.
On the other hand, insulin does play some role in muscle gains. But it is really easy to eat 130+ grams of protein in meat. Eat 1 pound of any of the lean roasts (eg, eye of round for instance). And if you want a bigger hit, take whey protein, which gives such a massive insulin hit that you can eat it before a high carb meal, and it lowers your postprandial blood sugar level. (Thought experiment: where does that blood sugar go? Is there a difference if you’re younger and/or have just lifted 60 minutes? A difference if you’re older and highly insulin resistant?) Is it the insulin or the carbs?
The complexities of this make the issue as to whether carbs are important for muscle gains, for people who have been low carb for a long time, necessary. For me, I tried a TKD where I ate carbs after my work out. I could not tell a benefit. I also could not find carbs I can handle, as both potatoes and sweet potatoes upset my stomach.
But I’m sure there’s a role of exercise, too. Could someone working out 6 days per week need or use more carbs than someone working out (like me) 3 days a week? I think so.
Also, I have a theory. If you do start eating more carbs, I think your morning blood sugar will go down. I think my morning blood sugar is higher due (1) exercising in the morning and (2) your body can tell you’re getting more energy and therefore will need to produce less morning blood sugar.
In this context, is having lower morning blood sugar good? Many people will argue that. These are of the “numbers matter!” group, where if you’re blood sugar is over X in the morning, you will most assuredly DIE. Me, I’m not convinced, as all of the blood sugar studies are epidemiological and none of them are for people like me, low carb/keto 7+ years.
I think we should stop arguing about this. If you think carbs are necessary for muscle, go to Keto Gains, or wherever they advocate that and be happy.
I don’t recall claiming that carbs built the muscle. Carbs are a better muscle fuel than fat. Carbs are fast, fat is slow. Muscle suck in carbs as much as they can, they don’t do that with fat. More fuel = harder and longer workouts which equals more hypertrophy.
Care to address why all the people I mentioned in that post lost significant muscle mass since going keto and gainined mass back when switching to TKD/CKD?
Better yet… have you ever seriously lifted for an extended period of time, and put on mass on both carbs and without?
Effects of KD on muscle mass control pathways. IGF-1 = insulin-like growth factor-1; HGF = Hepatocyte growth factor; IL-6=Interleukin-6; NO = Nitric Oxide; PA = phosphatidic acid; FAK = Focal adhesion kinase; IRS-1 = Insulin receptor substrate-1; PI3K = Phosphoinositide 3-kinase; AKT = protein kinase B; TSC = Tuberous sclerosis protein; Gap activity toward Rags 1; GATOR2, Gap activity toward Rags 2; AMPK = 5’ adenosine monophosphate- activated protein kinase; Rheb = Ras homolog enriched in brain; mTORC1 = mammalian/mechanistic target of rapamycin complex 1; p70s6k = S6 kinase beta- 1; 4EBP1 = 4E-binding protein 1; GDF11 = Growth differentiation factor 11; TNFα = Tumor necrosis factor α ; ROS = Reactive oxygen species ; NF kB = nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells ; MuRF1 = Muscle RING-finger protein-1 .