Long read but fascinating look into carnivore eating and the lack of health problems with it - including scurvy!
http://www.comby.org/documents/documents_in_english/stefansson-diet-adventures.htm
Doctor who recommended Keto says it isn't great as a long term diet
Helen_Taylor
(Helen Taylor)
#159
Don’t forget that the answers Dr Google gives is only the ones other people think are right.
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#160
I am curious about the kidney stone thing. Do you eat or drink any lemon juice or other fruits since going keto and does anything else you eat or take have anything called citrate in it like medications? Or did you cut out foods high in oxalates?
And do eat more calcium rich foods like cheese, milk or supplements, medications etc?
Azure
(*Tame Those Ghrelin Gremlins)
#162
You should read the book , The Obesity Code” it actually explains it very well the very subject you speak of. One thing that stuck in my mind that they brought up…why do we call our first meal of the day breakfast? It’s not because we are supposed to eat it soon as we rise. (SAD) would have you believe that. The word means “to break fast” or to break your fasting. You can choose when that happens. I never feel hungry when I wake up. My “breakfast” isn’t usually until 1 pm. 
Robert_Johnson
(Consensus is Politics)
#163
My first kidney stone was a few years after retiring from the USAF. I wouldnt say I was eating better, but my gf at the time was a Filipinas, and she cooked a gluttony of various meals. The only two traditional foods I didnt eat were black pudding (pork blood) and balute (sp?) (duck egg with half grown embyro).
There was a lot of taro root and greens. From what I remember taro greens are a serious health risk if prepared inncorrectly. Iirc it has to do with very high levels of calcium oxalate.
Then there is cassave root. I refuse to eat it because it contains high amounts of cyanide naturally. And is very deadly if not prrpared correctly. I heard of a story when a young woman killed her entire extended family at a gathering because she didnt know about this. Roughly 200 people at a family reunion. I hear that its not uncommon, but not at that scale.
I never saw thr first kidney stone. I didnt know what it was until it passed. Funny thing with everystone i remember seeing, they all looked like medival implimants of torture, having splikes and blades coming out at odd angles. But were painles traveling the las 7 inches or so. But on the way to the bladder were at maximun effect! 
Over the next few years they came with increasing regularity. Not always painful enough to put me on the floor in the fetal position, although that did happen once every couple of years.
So I eventually decided to just dump the advice of doctors as they were obviously just regurgitating consensus and not science. “You drink too much iced tea… too much soda… too much junk food… your tap water contains x, y, or z.” That last one was probably the reason for some of them though. The Phoenix valley is notorious for its hard water.
I began to do my own research. I found at least three different types of stones, with different causes. It would have made a great kidney stone book if only i took better notes. 
I basically came to the conclusion that I needed to inhibit the growth of crystals. 
This isnt one of mine, just an image I found on the net. Im not sure of its scale, but mine looked very similar. Think of a water melon seed. The smaller white seed. Same shape, flat teardrop shape. Then at the wide end give it a crown a razorblades sticking out like this image. Like previously stated, Medieval.
Question: how to safely lower the bodies ph? Could it even be done? Everything I read on the subject stated the bodybwould resist this. I read something once (dont remember what this was exactly) that there are life threatening conditions that effect the ph, making lower and another making it higher, even though only slightly, not a good thing. So body ph needs and will fight to remain at its normal ph (i cant remeber at the moment what that is right now, im think its about 7.4??)
But I made the attempt to change it, even if only slightly and temporarily. Gallons of lemonade. But not just regular lemonade. Instead of fresh lemons, that begin to rot so you cant stock up very much, I used crystallized lemon juice. Everytime I would get a glass of water I would have the equivalent of half a lemon in it, sweetened with non sugary sweetener (which may have been a confounder). And I did begin to notice a difference.
Several months later my stones became less edgy. More spherical and smooth. There was also a color change. Previously the stones were slightly pink, and indeed looked stone like. As if made from sandstone, or quartz. With this modification they began to turn dark brown and were missing the razor blades. And though usually larger than the others, had relatively no pain when passing. Just a slight tickle at the end of the tube it exits where it meets the skin. Annoying tickle, like an ant walking on the skin, and would end when the stone made it into the bladder (assuming, based on it egressing shortly after in urine).
This was one of my last stones passed before going Keto. By this time I had been adding the crystallized lemon/lime to everyting I drank. Notice the lack medieval weapons protruding from it. It passed eaily and smoothly. It may as well have been an air bubble.
As far as I know I have never had any meds or supps that contained citrares. I almost picked up a supplement once (potassium citrate? Sodium citrate? That claimed it was better than the supp without it. But the dosage was so low in the supp I wanted I figured it was better to just sprinklie it on my food (I think it might have been sodium now that I think anout it. The supplement was around 500 mg but the sodium part was about 80 mg or less. Not wotth bothering in my view. You make me wonder now. Should I take Citrates?
There was alo a confounder I think. I never saw any data of this 10 years ago, and it may have been coincidence. The increase in stone creation happened very close to the same time I began using high dosages of Vitamin D3. For several weeks i was taking 40,000 IU a day. At first it seemed great. No more allergies, no more colds or flu when it went around. Over all felt better. After about two months I began feeling a bit ‘off’. I just didnt feel right. I looked up VD3 toxicity, and could only find one study that said 60,000 iu per day for a month would be toxic you a young child. Age/weight wasnt given. I figured I should be safe from toxicity being a lot larger than a child, and looked into it further.
Steve Gibson from the ‘SecurityNow!’ podcast had been doing a lengthy n=1 with Vitamin D3 and sunbathing in the nude. He was testing himself everyday to see the effects and discovered that after 30 minutes of miday full exposure his body would create 30,000 iu of D3. Diminishing returns were dramtic at that point.
So from that I gathered I could have been slowly toxifying myself. I lowered my dosssge to 30,000 a day and felt great ever since.
But something began to occur to me. Could the exceesive VD3 be increasing the kidney stones? I have heard someone joke about taking too much VD3 everyday and turning into quartz. But why quartz? And some of my stones did look like quartz. Coincidence?
To be continued…?
Diygurl19
(traci simpson)
#166
Maybe there is something in switching up the diet every few months. Keto and Paleo are similar in nature and they both promote a healthier lifestyle so maybe after six months you switch from one and then six months later you switch back to another ? who knows?
Saphire
#167
I think that is interesting but would be a problem for those doing Keto for diabetes as Paleo can be higher in carbs
ctviggen
(Bob M)
#168
I tried paleo for a while, but it does cause much higher blood sugar spikes. Maybe if I never messed up my metabolism, it would be OK.
The other issue is that a lot of “paleo” foods and I don’t get along. Sweet potato can cause issues, as can zucchini. A further issue is that “paleo” typically includes things that really aren’t “paleo”, like maple syrup. I can’t see any good to maple syrup, save in small quantities for flavoring. They also allow a lot of “flours” that I think are questionable at best and bad for you at worst. For instance, cassava root flour, nut flours, etc. I think it’s best we don’t eat those.
gingersmommy
(Marianne)
#169
I’d be curious to know what he is basing this on (not that I’d ask him). I bet it’s on the old familiar science that has been shoved down our throats since the 60s.
Since starting, I have learned so much from the scientists and experts on this forum, as well as reading and watching the numerous and extensive videos on dietdoctor.com. The majority, if not all, of the information presented has been scientifically researched, studied and presented by physicians and nutritionists. I believe in what they say more than what my general practitioner tells me - I don’t acknowledge him as an expert in the field of diet and nutrition.
Don’t think for a minute that the food industry and ADA are completely altruistic in wanting to help the public. I am becoming a conspiracy theorist in my old age and now believe that big agriculture, big pharma and big business are all in bed together for corporate gain alone. Why else would they be promoting a WOE for over 50 years that is making us fatter? In spite of the empirical (love that word - thank you @atomicspacebunny), evidence that keto works, why hasn’t mainstreamed medicine or the ADA promoted comprehensive research into it? They just accept and continue to push what we all have been told is “healthy” eating (“good” carbs, fruits, “healthy” grains and oils, low fat, etc.).
I am comfortable with what I have learned and how I have chosen to eat. We are all going to die of something, however, I don’t think my blood work lies, I have gotten my body to where it is healthy enough to discontinue some of the medications I was on, instead of just treating the symptoms of disease, plus I feel like the keto WOE will give me the best chances of staving off cancer, which I’m sure my old way of eating was promoting. Now when I go to my gp (who never even acknowledged a 60 lb. weight loss, despite seeing me frequently pre-keto, and my weight was also in my chart), I take what he says with a grain of salt.
Shinita
#170
My first thought was similar. I wouldn’t accept these things without even something to back it up, not like I can imagine there is something like that. We know fruit and vegetables aren’t essential and they are quite bad for certain people. Maybe good for others but it’s individual and if it works, why to break it?
Keto isn’t very specific and it’s true for paleo as well. We can do both diets in very different ways. We shouldn’t eat food that is clearly harmful for us and we need to get the necessary nutrients. Keto is bad only if we can’t function well with this little carbs or we need carbier items for some reason (because the keto options can’t work for us. There is no essential nutrients we can’t get from keto food, after all. If the doctor disagrees, just tell a single one…)
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#171
Thought this was interesting also:
What foods to avoid if you have calcium oxalate kidney stones?
Get the calcium you need: Getting too little calcium in your diet can cause oxalate levels to rise and cause kidney stones. To prevent this, make sure to take in an amount of calcium appropriate to your age. Ideally, obtain calcium from foods, since some studies have linked taking calcium supplements to kidney stones.
Diygurl19
(traci simpson)
#172
My doctor said he is OK with keto, however, he said to watch the fat because it will clog my arteries since it has nowhere to go!
Janie
(Jane)
#174
They just don’t understand the concept that you use the fat you eat for ENERGY and burn it up. But you cannot blame them - just repeating what they have been taught.
barefootbob
#175
But you can fire them. If my accountant was 30 years behind in tax law I’d find another.
Momof5
(Susan)
#176
When I was at my doctor’s recently with my daughter (that had an appointment) I told him that I have lost 57 pounds so far on Keto, and he said that was great --but didn’t say much (in total fairness to him, the appointment was for my daughter and not for me). I did say that now I have drastically reduced my chances of Type2Diabetes and he didn’t agree with me, however -he just kind of said oh, we’ll see type of response. I will make an appointment for myself after I have lost a bunch more weight. I am 1/3 of the way to goal now =).
Janie
(Jane)
#177
You may have better choices where you live to find a keto-friendly doctor, but I live in BFE Arkansas with limited choices. I focus on one who is competent in diagnosing and treating illness, not make diet recommendations to me. I got that part! 
barefootbob
#178
I live in SC, the situation isn’t much better here. I did get lucky and found a good NP who is familiar with Keto and didn’t freak out when I told her I was carnivore. I have very little use or patience with most GPs.