All of the arguments in the world still doesn’t beat experience. I am old enough to remember when there wasn’t all of the prepackaged so called food. I am only enough to remember when men and women didn’t have pot bellies. I am old enough to remember not finding jeans in the stores larger than 38 waist sizes. The spread started when the prepackaged so called foods became popular with the hurry up and work more society. So I am old enough to have seen what prepackaged so called foods have done to us. The real answer here is eat real naturally grown foods, and just there or some plants, vegetables that are toxic to the human body. And anything eaten in excess is unhealthy for the body and soul. The key is what works for you the individual. As someone that is old enough to not have eaten prepackaged food until I was an adult and see the results on myself and so many around me I don’t understand how we have allowed ourselves to be brainwashed by the food industry, the medical industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and even our government and media. We even argue over keto and low carb foods because the media and all of the above are trying to keep us from know the truth. And the truth is simple eat real food, stay away from processed foods that have ingredients that read like a chemistry project.
It you eat keto make sure it is real food, the same with low carb, high carb, or eating nothing but meat and dairy because if you depend on prepackaged foods you could be come part of the chemistry project.
Do all carbs have the same effect?
Interesting thoughts in this thread…
IDK what difference different carb intake in ketosis makes but we don’t simply have some fixed keto state all the time. It probably matters if our hypothetical guy eats 30g sugar at once, all alone or he does it in a more sane way, if he eats his sugar during a maraton (some folks do one before breakfast, the distance, I mean, not a proper competition, of course ;)) so he uses it up just fine…
But I can’t contribute more, I just don’t know enough but I strongly suspect how I should eat at this point and that’s something 
Especially when I compare myself to the average person.
you have to see the big picture.
the ancesteral food is not food of today at all. In season. Only that season. Now it is in stores 24/7 and people are not even eating what was local only to their area. Then GMO the increased sugar content of that food and remember…your decades of eating processed manmade chemical crap is real. You are not your ancestor. You never will be. Your activity and lifestyle and more will never equal theirs so as much as we say wanna compare ourselves we truly can not.
It is ok to eat meat and veg as you want. No one says ya can’t 
You eat the best way you feel your best. No one is taking that away from you and you don’t have to convince any of us that function best on extreme low carb eating or zero carb from plants like carnivore plan that the way we eat is wrong in any way…we know it isn’t You don’t ride by info about toxins in plants and how carbs react in our bodies and more then it is cool. Do you, all good.
Your ‘simple truth’ of eat real food, stay away from processed will never be my truth. So…we aren’t debating what is best for you or me kinda tho. Do you, allow others to do themselves also.
Key being there again is ketone fuel burn or glucose burn, what you eat your body will totally do whichever system it is designed to do on your food intake.
I don’t think you see my big picture. I don’t care about the ketones and don’t measure them or even know for sure that I am producing them. I am slimming down, I am slowly losing weight, that is all I care about! I am not diabetic, in fact I am closer to be hypoglycemic, but on the low carb diet I have had an issue with dizziness or fatigue, like I did with the high carb diet if I fasted for any amount of time. Now I intermittent fast for at least 16 hours each day without any issues and in fact I feel better the longer I fast. There are the nan sayers that claim fasting is important and there are others that feel that fasting is the key to healthy wellbeing and weight control regardless of the diet. For me it seems to be low carb and fasting at least 16 hours each day. I also sleep better and have more energy this way. I am not saying you aren’t right as for as the way you see the science but it isn’t that important for some of us. And there are plenty of other opinions that have been written that make just as much sense and works as well.
I don’t think anybody can argue that packaged foods helped western society get healthier. At best, it’s prevented some in poverty from starvation, but ultimately leading to malnutrition instead.
I saw your big picture that suits you personally. I never once said it did not but what you aren’t giving any thought to is what it takes for others! Said do you, cool. Now allow us to do us and not say just cause you do well, we all should be you…don’t work that way. And the original chat was what was a ketogenic fuel burn and those who require it and those who can be more, jump in and out of ketone burn and glucose burn as you do and do well. I don’t know why you continue to feel ya need to defend you…we all get it. do you. all good but when ya say ‘xyz’ like our ancestors ate carbs in season plant/veg I can also say you don’t get real truths of what happened millions of years ago and what food was then too yet you use ‘you’ as an example why it is comparable and it isn’t.
One of my big "learnings’ from this forum has been our ancestral food habits and therefore why we/some of us, have so much trouble with carbs nowadays. I had heard about the paleo diet a few years ago, and dismissed it , assuming that we would have adapted by now to the modern, high grain, high carb diet (not the processed junk btw!). However, since reading all the info in this forum, doing research myself, and opening up my mind to this totally different WOE, and l am now convinced that
- We have not evolved much, if at all, beyond the digestive system of our ancestors - not nearly enough time has passed for adaptations to have occurred to enable consumption of so many plant- based carbs, etc
- This therefore gives some us tremendous problems when we give our bodies lots of modern carbs (which includes fruit and veg as so much of it now is genetically modified)
- It therefore makes great sense to me now why my system does much better on a very low carb keto diet
- I have just been so hard-wired all my life into the wrong ideologies on what healthy eating is…and this is from someone who has always eaten a very very clean “healthy” diet!
The weight loss suggests that your insulin is low enough for you to be in ketosis, since elevated insulin promotes glucose metabolism and fat storage and inhibits fatty-acid metabolism. Dizziness and fatigue can be symptoms of a low sodium intake, which according to a couple of recent studies is best for us when in the range of 4-6 g/day (which is 10-15 g of sodium chloride), from all sources. But if you are keeping your salt intake up and still feeling that way, you may need to see your physician, because it’s possible that something unrelated is going on.
I’m glad you are finding fasting beneficial. It never worked for me, but everyone is different. You are also unusual in that you got into fasting early in your keto experience, whereas most newcomers do better with fasting later in the process. As the Dudes like to say, there are two main principles by which they operate: (1) Show us the science, and (2) Figure out what works for you.
I have actually been doing fasting for decades in one form or another. I haven’t for a long time eaten anything after my afternoon meal, I have always eaten dinner or supper depending on one’s upbringing before 6:00pm. I normally do not eaten breakfast or anything before 10:00am. Not that I sleep late but because I just wasn’t hungry. My largest meal is normally my first meal of the day, with my dinner being reasonably light, normal less than 600 calories. And I don’t snack in between meals anymore, unless it is fruit or maybe a piece of cheese.
So fasting is just my lifestyle.
@MattWisti Thanks for that great, really interesting reply. It makes a lot of sense, and whilst some of the info l knew, just had never put it together in the context of what is the healthiest diet for our metabolism. The evolutionary stuff is fascinating, and your comment about our perception of what is a long time ago, is bang on, and exactly what l used to think - "a few thousand years is loads of time for our metabolism to have adjusted to the diet from farmed foods. So what’s this carnivore diet all about!! " Thanks again
Another question to throw out there regarding the differing effects of different carbs - many of you have said that some veg is OK and can be tolerated, and others not . I wonder whether there is a commonality here where certain veg are ok for most people, and others give problems for most people? I have never done well with potato for example, as it causes very bad blood glucose dips. So, any insights would be very useful, as always.
The recommendation for which vegetables are keto-friendly and which are not basically has to do with how fibrous they are. It is easy to eat a satisfying quantity of leafy greens, broccoli, or cauliflower and still keep the amount of digestible carbohydrate low, whereas sugar is pure glucose and fructose, and starchy vegetables are almost entirely glucose. Grains also contain a lot of glucose, which is why they also are not recommended on a keto diet. If you are trying to keep your glucose (carbohydrate) intake under 20 g/day, it is hard to do that when eating sugar, starches, and grains.
The glucose dip you mention when eating potatoes is, as you probably know, the result of the insulin response to all the glucose in the potatoes. Starch is nothing more than glucose molecules bonded together in a certain way. And potatoes contain very little fibre, so it is safer to think of a potato as being made entirely of glucose. If I could eat only 20 g of potato a day, and no other carbohydrate, that would be fine for my keto diet, but eating one French fry and stopping? That’ll be the day!
Now the question of whether there are ingredients in plants that cause people difficulties is a different one, and the answer to that is that different phytochemicals have different effects on different people.
Yep, it’s very individual which vegs to use and avoid.
If it’s just about ketosis, it’s the carbs. Not in 100g, in a portion if you ask me as I function that way… I couldn’t eat fried cauliflower as I couldn’t stop in time (I could only spend 25g net carbs on vegetables in total and that was impossibly little of cauliflower for me when fried) but I ate carrots, onions and green peas in soups as they were vital for them and the amount was very small anyway.
I am thinking but I don’t know a veggie group that is particularly bad, I mean a big portion of people have problems with it… Except legumes but most people can’t eat them on keto and definitely not in bigger amounts… Some people have problems with spinach due to histamine if I remember correctly…? That’s it.
I would avoid very sugary*, sweet vegs (or use them in tiny amounts if they are worth it) as sugary things may bring too many problems. Easy to overdo the carbs, may be triggering etc.
*Maybe they aren’t VERY sugary for everyone but at this point my sweet perception is very different from most people’s…
Yes, l know about the starchy veg being too high in carbs and the link to the amount of fibre. Your explanation about the potatoes makes perfect sense though, and on reflection, l realise that my ability to eat a whole baked potato has diminished over recent years, to the point where the last one l ate made me ill! it is the photochemical aspects that l am interested in as l read in this forum how some people will edge back to a few veg but have health problems re-emerge and have to stop again. So l wonder whether it is just any veg in their cases or just specific ones. I remember the macrobiotic diet which l think excluded any plants from the nightshade family which did help alot of people - so this must have been just certain foods which caused them the problems, rather than too many veg in general. It is just me rambling and hypothesising, lol!
Isn’t that a tiny thing? Even if it’s a big potato.
I was a potato fan, 1 kg wasn’t really a challenge… And people talk about a single one like it is much (okay, it is to me now. we put a huge potato into our deer goulash in the weekend and I had slightly
uncomfortable feelings…).
Oh, you are right, many people have problems with those, I forgot…
I’m not sure, but I suspect it’s more likely certain ones, depending on the individual, though there are problems such as oxalates that seem to affect quite a few people.
Also, there are studies showing that certain vitamins are found in a more bioavailable form in animal foods. Though it must be said that, even in such cases, vitamins found in plant sources are generally more bioavailable than those in supplements, since supplements with the more bioavailable versions are often either unstable or simply more expensive to produce.
Also, where fibre is concerned, some people discover, from going keto, that fibre is actually one of the factors that had been exacerbating their irritable bowel, diverticulitis, or Crohn’s disease, while other find that they still need fibre on keto (and of course the vast majority don’t seem to react particularly to the presence or absence of fibre).