Disappointed after 13 months

#36

Thank you, Paul!

However, we aren’t talking about someone eating in excess of what this person needs just to survive. Even people who are insulin resistant lose weight if they restrict calories. It’s tough, but it happens. It means high insulin doesn’t mean that person doesn’t need energy to survive. Energy that can’t be explained only by those 240 Kcal (60g carbs) that person has eaten. Breathing, digesting, blinking will deplete those 240 Kcal and it’s not going to be enough. The rest of the energy is going to come from burning other stuff, including fat.

Also, many people aren’t insulin resistant.

#37

I’m googling some of the things you say to try to understand. For instance: “ketosis is a byproduct of burning fat”.

I’m back with this from Diet Doctor:
" Ketosis is a metabolic state in which your body uses fat and ketones rather than glucose (sugar) as its main fuel source.

Glucose is stored in your liver and released as needed for energy. However, after carb intake has been extremely low for one to two days, these glucose stores become depleted.

Your liver can make some glucose from amino acids in the protein you eat via a process known as gluconeogenesis , but not nearly enough to meet all the needs of your brain, which requires a constant fuel supply."

So, I still don’t understand why, when one would eat 60g of carbs per day, the main fuel source wouldn’t be fat.

(I’m so sorry we’re hijacking this thread! It wasn’t my intention! If someone wants to move this discussion elsewhere…)

Ketosis and Fat Adaptation - A Discussion and Analysis
(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #38

However, there is a difference between losing weight and losing fat. It is very difficult to shed excess stored fat when insulin is high, because insulin signals fat cells not to allow the fatty acids to escape (the mechanism is more complicated than that, but that’s the gist).

(Edith) #39

This is soooooo me! Just add berries, dark chocolate, black and green tea to the list.

#40

Though I personally agree with you, for some individuals, cutting carbs works, too. I personally find it a miserable way to live, but it works for some folks, too.

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(15)00350-2

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #41

You know what, that’s a good point:

Attention: @PaulL @OldDog @VirginiaEdie @ctviggen @OldDoug @PetaMarie Please help out as you can and deem appropriate. Thanks.

PS: Maybe one of you admins can copy the relevant posts talking about ketosis and fat adaptation from this topic to the new one?

(Edith) #42

I believe it also has something to do with the degree of insulin resistance one has. A VERY insulin resistant person has a much lower carb tolerance than someone with better metabolic health.

#43

You went right to the point that keeps me hoping. I think I have some undesirable degree of insulin resistance. That’s the main reason I’ll keep eating very low carb, no matter how weak I feel. I think I’ve caught the problem early on and I hope I can heal by eating very low carb.

I’ve never been diagnosed as diabetic, not even pre, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t coming to that point in a near future if I hadn’t taken measures. I’ve decided to do something about it and started keto about 1 year ago. I don’t regret it! I feel super weak, but I’m confident eventually I’ll find something to make it better, all the while keeping insulin as low as possible, to undo the damage, at least in part, that eating low fat has done to my body.

(Edith) #44

I wish I could provide some kind of answer to your feeling weak. That is not something I’ve had after becoming fat adapted. It took me almost six months before I could exercise and not have the lead feeling in my legs, but certainly not a year.

I do eat a lot of protein, more than the 1g per kg of body weight that is suggested. I never found fat as satiating. In fact, I don’t think I got enough vitamins and minerals when I was eating more fat.

#45

The main source would be fat, sure. But the carbs are probably high enough to prevent ketosis. It’s late and the others are so much better with science so I stop here. I just can tell you I lost much fat easily eating <80g carbs, feeling good, nice satiation all day, those were my successful times. Unlike many others, I needed to go lower eventually, though. But I mostly used dietary fat and a tiny bit of body fat to fuel me, clearly, what else?

#46

@Corals I think a normal human body oxidizes dietary fatty acids for energy, and that process produces ketones in anyone. The presence of ketone bodies in the blood doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in “ketosis”. -osis refers to an excess of something. I’m inclined to think @Carnivoor is correct that there is a spectrum of ketone concentration in the blood, and what you call ketosis might at some level arbitrary.

Interestingly, before I went carnivore-ish —and was eating up to 60 g carbs some days—I had periods of such utter exhaustion that I thought I would slip into a coma! Clearly my ability to metabolize my dietary fat for energy was messed up. Now at close to zero carbs (day 5), my energy is incredibly high and constant.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #47

Oxidation of fat for energy occurs in everyone but synthesis of ketones only occurs when insulin is below a critical level. Yes, presence of ketones in blood is an indication of ketosis - which in this case does not mean an excess. @Carnivoor is incorrect about his ‘spectrum’ description.

#48

This is interesting.

But for the record, I don’t eat 60g of carbs. I only talked about 60g as an example. Because that is still only 240 Kcal. I’m someone is eating for 2000 Kcal, 240 Kcal is still a very small part of that.

As for the ketosis being an excess, I need to read more about this. I’ve seen links were posted. I’ll do some reading.

I don’t feel like excess is necessary. But the problem is that it feels like I’m in serious deficit.

I’ve tried carnivore and felt so unhappy. It isn’t for me. I like to have some veggies, even if it’s just the tiniest stick of celery, or some broccoli. It makes me happy when I eat. Tough I love fat, like butter, I don’t like meat. I could eat just the fat of the bacon, for instance (take all the meat part out). But it gets boring.

(Vic) #49

A few years ago, my youngest daughter, then 10y old. Sometimes played wit my Ketonix.

Sometimes it would be more then zero and even close to nutritional ketosis leven.

She was eating lots of carbs including candy, fruit and junkfood. No way ran out of glucose as we see it.

I agree, I’m wrong.
Saving a bit of scepticism thou, in human biochemistry thing are rarely on/off, black or white, its always shades of grey.

Insulin has the dominating role in this story

(Edith) #50

@Wendy198 and @Corals,

Years ago I was listening to Keto for Women podcast and the host mentioned something about keto limbo: too few carbs to be a sugar burner and too many carbs to be a fat burner. This can cause a total lack of energy because you’re not getting enough carbs to use for energy, but you can’t access your fat stores to utilize the fat for energy. I would imagine everyone’s threshold for limbo would be different depending upon metabolic health, activity level, etc.

#51

@amwassil Ok, I just reviewed the biochemistry on this topic and see I am also probably wrong and that ketosis is more like an on or off state in fatty acid oxidation. Fatty acids that you eat are of course an energy source but the oxidation cycle doesn’t always produce ketones.

I’m intrigued by what @VirginiaEdie mentioned about keto limbo. It sure felt like that was what I was in for a couple months when my carbs were vacillating between 20 and 60, day to day. Maybe my body was not able to turn ketosis on and off quickly enough.

@Corals I am on day 5 of mostly carnivore and can’t say I love it but am trying to learn to live with it for 30 days. The reason is that I have not felt this good in ages. My pain level (a very motivating factor) is way down. After 30 days of this, I’m hoping to add certain veggies I really miss back slowly to see their effect.

(Ian) #52

Awesome approach, and I’m glad to hear that it is having a positive impact on your pain. It will be interesting to see what food you introduce back into your diet will trigger the inflammation. The tricky bit will be figuring out how long it takes for a certain food to re-ignite the inflammation.

What veggies do you really miss and can you limit the initial re-introduction to the low oxalate and low PUFA foods?

#53

@Knnn Yes, it will be tricky identifying offending substances. This might be a long and slow process. Right now, I’m also planning to limit high FODMAP foods (garlic and onions, for example – two of my favorites…and apparently avocados in excess are high in FODMAPs). I will also limit oxalates. I’m hoping eventually that most whole fruits and vegetables can be eaten in small amounts, because there are not many fruits or vegetables I don’t like! I’m not as wedded to nuts so I can more easily imagine going off those for the long haul.

Also happy to report that the scale seems to be resuming a downward direction.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #54

The simple, easy and quick solution: forget about them. You don’t need them - any of them - and you’ll be better off without them. Even if you think you can’t live without them, once they’re gone you’ll live and be glad you bade farewell.

PS: Although it may sound like it, I’m not carnivore. But that works, too.

#55

That’s fantastic, the thing about your pain levels being better now! I hope it only continues to improve and that you eventually can keep these improvements even adding at least some of the things you miss, hopefully all of them!