Difficult to fast

(Rob Grantham) #1

I know Richard has talked about this previously but since being more lean 14% body fat I find it extremely difficult to fast like even if I miss breakfast and lunch I would feel on edge … when I was bigger I could easily fast for 36 hours or longer. Is this normal?does anyone else have this experience? I don’t mind eating three meals but I’m sure there are those who are lean who can fast so I don’t understand why this is the case

#2

I’ve lost 70 pounds in the past 11 months and nearly 50 pounds of that came with keto/EF (255 to 185). But since I’ve dropped below 188, fasting has become much tougher and the scale is moving in ounces rather than pounds.Need to do something to fool my metabolism. (I’m currently on a 60+ hour fast)

(Alec) #3

There is a theoretical limit to the amount of calories your body can extract per lb of body fat you have. The lower your body fat the fewer calories you can extract each day. This may be what you are feeling. Your body is telling you GO FIND SOMETHING TO EAT!!!

(Rob Grantham) #4

Yes that’s exactly what it feels like… my body is telling me to eat. So maybe fasting isn’t for me at the moment. I’m at a healthy weight I wanted to do it mainly for the autophagy

(Herb Martin) #5

Are you working from a ketogenic diet or from a carb loaded diet?

I am a carnivore so going to fast is no deal for me. (Though I am still heavier too.)

You might consider (something like) carnivore for 30 days and at some point launch a fast from a no-carb state.

(Alec) #6

Rob
How fat adapted do you think you are? If you have been deep keto for 12 months you should be highly fat adapated, and therefore able to maximise your fat burn. If it is less than that, you may still be in the process of optimising fat adaptation. True full fat adaptation can take a long time.

There is no doubt that some folks just don’t go well on fasting… if you are well fat adapted, and you really want to do a decent fast for autophagy (you’ll need min 2-3 days fasting for that), then my suggestion is do one 3 days fast, and grit your teeth through it and do not succumb to what your body is telling you. It is just possible that the feelings will pass and you will find the last day or 2 of the fast easier than the first.

Once you’ve done one longer one, you’ll then know whether you can bear it, or whether it really is not for you. You won’t do any damage by the grit your teeth method for only one time. Do it repeatedly, and it may do some damage.

Best of luck.
Cheers

(Erin Macfarland ) #7

I’m about 8% body fat, which is very “underfat” for a woman. I’m very active, working as a personal trainer, and also running and strength training. Been LCHF about 5 years. I have settled into a routine that works well for me, I finish eating around 6 or 7, sometimes later if I’m hungry, then fast all day the next day, doing fasted workouts, and then I eat around 4. I eat a big meal based on fatty beef usually, mostly ribeye, plenty of veggies with some butter or something, Then maybe some macadamia nuts, or pork rinds…I make sure I eat enough to fuel my body since I have very little body fat to supplement between meals. I also take electrolytes during the day plus extra salt. I have plenty of energy usually, and I prefer to workout fasted. But it takes time to get to this point, so do what feels right for you!

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #8

So don’t fast.

QED.

(Andrew Jolly) #9

Hi Rob, I’m 16.6% body fat and also experience difficulty beyond 24 hours without adding some extra fat from BP Coffee. I have read that there is a limit to the amount of energy you can get from your own body fat and with a low BF its likely not enough to fuel the body.
These days I tend to do what I think is called a fat fast which basically means I add about 50-100g of fat during my fast. With this I can continue beyond 24 hours. Probably not a strict fasting protocol but is works for me…

(Katie the Quiche Scoffing Stick Ninja ) #10

Try Richard’s calculator to determine how much energy your body can draw from it’s stored fat reserves.

(Kirk Wolak) #11

Rob, let me ask my typical questions:

  • What are you eating, and are you REALLY tracking your FAT, pushing FAT?
  • Are you having Dairy and BPC on your non-fasting days
  • Do you fast with broth or other things (Only water and Black Coffee/Tea is my rule, no sweeteners)

And being lean. So, at 14% body fat, let me calculate something for you… I assume you are 200lbs
So you have 28lbs of at. 1% = 2lbs. 2lbs = 7,000 calories. I assume your RMR is about 2,000 calories. So, you could fast for 3.5 days and only drop 1% of body fat. Using it for EXACTLY what it is designed for. (Adjust the numbers to reality for you).

It’s NOT about your % body fat. It is about the HEALTH of your metabolism and losing the KETO/Fasting Advantage. When you are Fat on SAD… Your REE is DOWN by 15% from baseline. Insulin is keeping you from becoming overly energetic. You are very efficient with calories, storing everything.

As you go KETO, the lack of insulin, and the inefficiency of using ketones is about a 15% ABOVE baseline consumption of calories. So, it feels like a 30% swing. You can actually eat more calories, and lose weight.

But, after SOME TIME, this advantage melts away, and you end up at baseline. Your cells use ketones efficiently, and you stop peeing out extra ones, and wasting them. So, you have to either increase your movement, or decrease your food intake by 15% to break even. (Just learned this at LCD19)

So, avoid fasting fatique. Go to OMAD for about 1 month, slowly adjusting your calories (with more fat, and less protein, but try to shave 10% of your total calories, all from protein). Get serious about lowering your fiber intake, and you may be so efficient now, that you have to stop using NET carbs, and use ALL carbs in your calculations. Congratulations, you healed your metabolism is the way to view this. In exercise terms “I have to run 3 miles to get winded, not 3 houses, LOL”

Protein, and Crap Creep are the first two causes I see all the time. FWIW!

(Rob Grantham) #12

Hi all…

Thank you for replies… I do eat keto yes I’ve been eating keto below 20g net since september. I would consider myself fat adapted.

I think it’s an adrenaline realease because if I get hungry I’m also quite anxious with it. As you say my metabolism was probably quite messed up from all those years of SAD.

I’m actually at 165 pounds and I can see my stomach muscles no problem. At 165 and 14% body fat this means I have probably limited availability to burn fat. Thank you for the calculator link!

It was just a question of the autophagy for me. But if it’s putting my body under more stress to fast then i simply wont

(Rob Grantham) #13

As for fat tracking no I don’t… I’ve just always eaten fat and protein to satiety. I’ve tracked them on a few occasions just to make sure I was on track and I was.

(Rob Grantham) #14

Oh and yes I do eat dairy…maybe I would consider omad and slowly transitioning

(Herb Martin) #15

I’ve always eaten as much protein as I wanted on keto diets and done quite well, though now I am hearing a lot of truly smart people tell me I was doing it wrong so I am not recommending it to others.

The current recommendation seems to be 1-2 G protein per kilo of ideal body weight, then fill with fat.

With older people needing the upper range (i.e., closer to 2 G).

I’ve never worried about such things.

On the carnivore diet many smart people recommend pushing more fat, supplementing even their fatty steak with more fat. I also didn’t worry about that.

Weight loss came easily but I did eventually get stalled so maybe that’s where I need to adjust the ratios.

My guess is that I am (or was) also insulin resistant now and wasn’t when I was in my 20s or 30s.

(Rob Grantham) #16

Yeah same here I seem to do quite well when I eat more fatty meat. I tend not to worry about protein. I eat until full when that happens I stop. Sometimes I over eat and when that happens I really notice it now. It’s tough for me to overshoot in protein I just try to make sure I eat meat with the fat included. I stopped doing lots of added fat as I felt it slowed me down and made me kind of tired

(Herb Martin) #17

Another rule that seems more effective (but I don’t always use) is to eat until the next bite does NOT taste DELICIOUS.

This also helps me pay attention to your food and savor the delicious flavors.

A ribeye, rib roast, or similar should be delicious – and it is – so when the next bite is “just food” it’s a good place to just stop.

(Dawn O Miller) #18

Good luck, would be interested to know what you decide to do. I have a similar problem, I’m 120lbs, 5’4" BMI 20 and a waist size of 29" and I was able to fast when I weighed 136lbs with a waist size of 36". Now if I fast longer than 16hrs I start to feel weak and sick, so I’m stuck eating 3 meals or 2 really big meals per day, I can’t even do OMAD. I miss being able to fast, especially for the the mental clarity and focus it gave me. I know some people might think I’m crazy but now I’m trying to gain some fat by bringing fruit back into my diet and eating it pretty regularly. My “theory” is maybe gaining some visceral fat is needed to fast…well it’s still early days for me in figuring this out…

(Rob Grantham) #19

I can totally relate to what you are saying and I think what you are referring to would have been a natural phenomenon amongst humans before agriculture. We would have gone through phases where food was more abundant and stored fat and once we had done this we also had the perfect mechanism to use this stored energy. I believe that is metabolic flexibility… the ability to go from feasted to fasted and back again. … I’m not sure but it’s my latest theory… obviously the feasts would have been sporadic and fleeting

(Rob Grantham) #20

At the moment I am choosing to eat 3/4 times daily usually 3 square meals 5 hours apart… it’s just what I feel better with… if I start dropping meals it makes me feel on edge like adrenaline is kicking in. I assume this is my body starting to panic