Devil's Advocate: Keto is a Fad

(Bunny) #21

Type of sugars and processed foods abuduntly available are fairly a new concept for the past 80+ years or so, so we have worked hard to fiddle-faddle (hence “fad diet”) with our bio-chemistry in such a way without realizing just how sensitive our capacity to store fat really is?

Rather than hunting game or foraging for veggies, nuts or fruits, wild game (including mostly organ meats) etc. low in types of sugars and bio-converted sugars and rich in micronutrients, our options have been deduced to a local Quickymart, a box of donuts, an over sized soft drink loaded with refined sugar, a bag of Cheetos and a samich made with dead bread and heavily processed carcinogenic meats?

Thousands of years ago the need to store food and preserve it for later consumption was eventually turned into a science and a specific group of people (our ancestors) world wide were appointed to do this, so the question now becomes, how do we conceptualize the way our ancestors hunted, foraged and gathered food and restore or revert back to the the types of organic food eaten? May not be practical in today’s world for most people, but we who eat whole-foods and cutting out the processed carbs and sugars are working hard to re-conceptualize what is considered a FAD?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

To say that “most people did not live to be very old” is inaccurate. It is very true that, because of childhood mortality, the average age at death was low, yet in many traditional societies, most of those who survived childhood lived to advanced ages. I will try to track down the references, but as I understand it, North American tribal societies—as well as, I believe, the Maasai—often used to contain a remarkable number of centenarians and nonagenarians before their diet was “modernized.”

Given that the Maasai living on their traditional diet (milk, blood, and meat) were so healthy that George Mann in the 1960’s could find only one person out of several hundreds who might have had a heart attack, and the physical examination and lab tests were inconclusive, I would say a priori that “too much” red meat and dairy is a myth.

On the other hand, dairy is a problem to most of the human population, since most of us stop producing lactase in adulthood. I also notice on these forums that even lactose-tolerant people can have other problems with dairy. So obviously, such people can definitely have too much dairy.

On the other other hand, I have the Northern European mutation that allowed my ability to digest milk sugars to continue after I reached adulthood, and I have no other apparent trouble with dairy, so my definition of “eating too much dairy” is using more heavy cream and Brie than I can afford at the supermarket. :cheese:

Lastly, given how much I hate journaling, I would definitely agree with anyone who wanted to advance the proposition, that “too much diary” is definitely a thing. :grinning:

(Bunny) #23

I would also like to expand on those thoughts:

One of the reasons for this (my own theory) is what I call “fortification” meaning blocking out (sterile) the natural environment (including sunlight) to various degrees with masonry, heavily built structures creating biological immunity issues e.g. culturing of bacteria etc. in contrast to the eras in human history world-wide as it relates to longevity?

Less fortification the more centurians you will have among your people?

(Jane) #24

ha ha. I had a good friend at work who LOVED to argue and would get so excitable! Sometimes just to mess with him I would switch sides in the middle and he would start arguing against my switched side… for a few minutes… then it was like - WAIT - WUT?

And we’b both crack up laughing because he knew he’d been had. :smile:

(Jane) #25

My great-grandparents ate a LOT of dairy and red meat - all raised on their own pastures. And carbs (biscuits every morning), beans nearly every day. And vegetables from their garden or what they canned for the winter. And butter and lard were their main fats and they ate them at every meal. Real food. Not much sugar - pies and cakes were for special occasions, not daily consumption.

They lived into their early 90’s with no heart disease, no diabetes, no obesity except for great-grandma who got a little thicker in the waist after birthing 8 kids but not obese. They took no medication. Great-grandpa stayed rail thin and vital his whole life.

Now, granted - they didn’t eat keto so maybe a poor example… but I think of them when someone says butter, lard and meats are “unhealthy”.

#26

Devil’s Advocate again. I see your point but that is anecdotal evidence. Genetics and lifestyle certainly play a part. Farmers have a healthy lifestyle working physically outdoors and eating fresh food.

My anecdote: my grandpa smoked and drank heavily his whole life and lived to his 90’s but that doesn’t mean it’s good for longevity.

(Edith) #27

Yeah, it makes me wonder if there is something else warping the human metabolism besides the refined carbs. Maybe it is as simple as the introduction of refined oils?

My grandmother was German. She ate sausages, smoked pork chops, ate her rye bread. She did have sweets on occasion. But, she always used whole milk and butter, and I don’t believe she used vegetable oils at all. She made it to 97.

(TJ Borden) #28

Add beer to that list and I could live on that forever.

(Edith) #29

Not beer actually. Her treat was a whiskey sour. :woman_shrugging:

(KetoQ) #30

I’ve done a lot of reading on keto and LC as of late, and have seen keto development and data for diabetes control from as early as the 1900’s from British sources, and believe there is info from Taubes that talks about early keto development from the mid/late 1800’s out of Germany – but don’t quote me on that.

The reason the German research on keto fell by the wayside was that pre WWII, German was the “lingua franca” of science, and post WWII, English quickly took precedence. So keto disappeared, and has made a comeback.

I would not say keto a fad. Been around longer as a documented diet much longer than many eating plans promoted today. Different types of thinking and/or more powerful advocates have emerged. The likes of Ancil Keyes is described as more of a bully or strong personality than a true researcher and thinker.

#31

The Internet will be a fad, claimed scientist in ’95

Fads can be amazing :slight_smile:

Source: https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2012/02/the_internet_futurist_who_thou/

(Ken) #32

Here’s a longevity comparison paper.

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml

(Aimee Moisa) #33

What’s FIFY?

(Doug) #34

“Fixed it for you.”

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #35

That is a fascinating link, though I think I want to see the mean and modal averages, as well as the sample sizes. The problem with median average is that it says nothing about how large the measured population was, nor does it indicate the range of values. In a sample of 100 with a median of 45, we know that 50 people were above and 50 were below the median, but was the range 35-55 or 0-90?

(Aimee Moisa) #36

No such thing as too much mooooilk. I mean, mooooiiiillk.

OK, I’ll get this right. Lemme try again.

MOOOOOOOIIIIILK!

Damnit.

(Aimee Moisa) #37

This thread looks great but it is so TL;DR. Maybe I can come back to it tonight.

(Jane) #38

True. But everyone in that small East Texas town ate like that, whether they farmed or not. They weren’t fat, didn’t have heart disease or diabetes as a rule. As for genetics… well contrary to popular opinion… they WEREN’T all related to each other! lol

What is your basis for your statement that eating red meats and dairy is alarming for health reasons? Other than your own opinion? What health risks do you think they are at risk for?

(Empress of the Unexpected) #39

No, no, its MELK! I was having lunch with my grown daughter and she said: "Mom, how do you pronounce “Milk?” I replied, “MELK.” “Oh, so mom, it’s your fault - everyone always corrects my pronunciation on that.”

#40

Haha not my opinion, I love red meat and milk. There are countless articles about cutting red meat and dairy from your diet for a longer healthier life. Pretty popular concept from many doctors. I think Mayo Clinic is the big one that makes recommendations. Of course the farmers don’t want to hear that. Same with Trump and coal miners. It can be hard to give up the old ways even with evidence for newer better ideas.