Dangers of the keto diet

(Bob M) #1

By none other than Dr. Paul Saladino:

If anyone has time to listen to this, can you tell me what is “dangerous”? (Looked at the transcript, but it’s really difficult to read.)

(Joey) #2

@ctviggen “Insulin doesn’t cause insulin resistance…” claims this click-bait doc.

Nah, of course not. How could insulin possibly cause insulin resistance? If so, then that would make insulin like all the other stimuli which cause resistance to the stimulus over time. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Sheesh. [Disclaimer: I gave up listening pretty quickly, so perhaps he reveals the humor later in the 1 hour long video. But if so, who has time to fall for this silliness.]

#3

I’ll take a look.

#4

I listened to that podcast, the title is more clickbait-y than anything, he didn’t bash keto, he just thinks it’s not optimal for most. He had no issues saying that keto is great in certain instances for the right people, but doesn’t think it’s optimal based on his experiences with it, don’t forget he ate keto himself.

In the context and examples he gave, I’d agree with him. I share a lot of them. I don’t agree with being on a basically beef and fruit only diet as he does, but that’s a different thing. He’s eating even more carbs than I am on my TKD/CKD and all his numbers between A1C, LP-IR, Fasting Insulin are all great, which is why he has that view now.

Except in his context it does, he’s eating around 250-300g carbs a day, mostly from fruit and all his numbers are perfect and holding, his belief is that it’s the processed ones are to blame, and that naturally occurring and fructose are fine. His fasting insulin, LP-IR, A1C are all great, his, Thyroid numbers are better, and inflammation markers are all perfect and better than when he eat Carnivore or Keto, I’ve had all the same results myself, and I don’t even eat like him.

There’s really nothing drastic about saying Insulin doesn’t cause insulin resistance. Most people still believe Fat makes you fat, and that it clogs your arteries, and in the context that the mainstream eats, it does! We do it different, and therefor it doesn’t. Context matters!

(Joey) #5

Thanks for taking the time to hear him out. Power to you! One hour is TLDR for me if it’s got a headline meant to attract eyeballs over something he doesn’t actually believe in (i.e., “Dangers of Keto Diet”).

It’s good to see his young body holding up well (per lab tests) doing what he’s doing. Then again, my 2 year old grandson can eat all kinds of crap that wouldn’t affect his bloodwork either (although his parents are smarter than feeding him crap).

When Saladino reaches the ripe old age that many of us who’ve loaded up on carbs over the decades have, I hope he posts an update - or correction - as the case may be.

#6

First, your post is excellent. I watched both the long and short form of these videos and your take is spot on.

Second, one thing that I was wondering after seeing his excellent blood work results is how much all of this comes down to genetics and N=1? I’m starting to grow more skeptical and concerned with influencers in this space who advise XYZ as “optimal” when we don’t know whether their success or failure is due to the food they put in their mouths or their genes or if it’s both, how much is attributable to each. This is why I graze their information and try things myself and adjust my own N=1 experience.

#7

I’ve actually developed eczema recently, on my eyebrows and forehead, never ever had that before but that is self diagnosed, and I put it down to possible bad Coviid- right at the start of the pandemic

#8

I believe he would, I used to think he was 100% brainwashed, but after a couple of years he’s changed his tune pretty drastically on a couple of things, and taken a lot of crap for it from the dogmatic crowd and he stands his ground because the labs don’t lie. He was a vegan for a long time as well, so he’s had his run with super high carb, and he routinely talks about how he always felt like garbage that way. The he went Paleo, Keto, Carnivore, and now his beef and fruit thing, which is too drastic for me, but for him it’s clearly working.

#9

No doubt a lot if is is N=1! That’s why I’m such a fan of tracking and lab work! So many make claims of a WOE working, or “didn’t work for me”, yet they have no data to back up anything, don’t know what they actually ate, or anything!

People talk about how bio-individual we all are, yet don’t learn anything about themselves and have no way to troubleshoot when there’s a problem.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #10

This is why the 2 Keto Dudes have two dogmata (Richard loves the fancy Greek plural—and so do I, I have to confess): (1) Show us the science; and (2) Find what works for you.

I’m happy with what my way of doing keto does for me, and while I might be able to tolerate the occasional bit of fruit, eating it always risks either pushing me over my carb limit, or starting me off on a carb binge, which would really put me over my limit! :bacon::bacon:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

But you have to take the right tests and draw the correct conclusions. Type II diabetes is rampant in my mother’s family, but neither she nor I was ever diagnosed. And the only reason for that is that no one ever thought to order an OGTT. Even an HbA1C test would have told the doctors something—if anyone had ever thought to order one!

(Bob M) #12

Personally, I have a hard time with people who were never fat telling us to eat a certain way. He was always relatively thin and “healthy”, though carnivore did help him.

But is what he is doing suitable for someone (like me) who is still way more overweight and doesn’t exercise as much? I am eating some carbs in a TKD format, basically the meal after I do body weight training. But I’m keto all the other times. (And I think – though have not tested – that I’m keto even while eating the one higher carb meal.)

I also don’t think that we can take all blood work as being meaningful. For instance, I saw Amber O’Hearn’s presentation at KetoFest 2022, and she remarked that one can get lower T3 uptake on a thyroid test, but that’s normal because these values were determined by…people eating high carb. If you’re not eating high carb, your T3 is lower, but that’s OK.

Now, if you get lower T3 and feel bad, that’s a different story. But I had lower T3 and felt great, no issues whatsoever.

This is why I have a hard time with him (and Ted Naiman, another person never fat).

I saw this post over on the Reddit Saturated Fat forum, where they are all trying to find potato chips fried in tallow, because they think that’s healthy. I can pretty much guarantee that for 99+% of the population, that’s not going to be healthy.

#13

me too, with the fruit. Strawberries killed a terrific year for me. Four weeks later, after carb creep, I had a sugary drink. I’m Ms.Slippery Slope when it comes to sweet fruits. (botanical fruits: tomato, cucumber, squash, bell peppers, no problem.) I also avoid sweeteners because I can feel the Sugar Monster start to purr at them–not full blown “run to the store and buy junk” roar, but it gets stirred.

#14

Personally, I have a hard time with people who were never fat telling us to eat a certain way.

Agree. Unless they treated the obese, and with compassion. I don’t think Lustig was ever seriously overweight, was he? 10-15 kg, something like that. But he saw hundreds of dangerously overweight kids in his office and knew they’d tried calorie restriction and failed, weren’t lazy, and desperately wanted not to be fat. And there are a couple of keto nutritionists who were never fat but saw it and T2 in their offices all the time and sincerely wanted to help (not berate, shame, and blame, which is 90% of doctors, in my experience).

(B Creighton) #15

I don’t believe a sugar spike to 140 is necessarily bad either. When I was doing Keto, I did some things to purposefully spike my insulin in order to influence more creatine and protein to get pushed into muscle. In other words, I put some xylitol in my yogurt along with creatine in order to spike insulin a little more without using “sugar.” Although that was probably a more moderate spike than eating a sugar sweetened yogurt would cause. I ate berries with my yogurt the whole time I did keto. Often I also had a red grapefruit after my yogurt. I think fruit is typically made by plants to entice animals to eat it, so it doesn’t pose the same anti-nutrient problems as some grains for instance. A healthy gut biome is going to help you with the fructose as well. I also focus on cruciferous vegetables. I think the main problems I had before doing keto was too much starchy carbs, too much processed foods, and too much vegetable oils. Cutting all those things out resulted in me losing the extra weight doing keto for only 3.5 months and even after quitting keto. For me I think the way I did keto was enjoyable, and I won’t mind doing again this winter a little. I like the way Thomas DeLauer does keto. He looks great and says he feels great. Paul has jumped from extremes to extremes I don’t want to try. Actually, he and Paul did a video on Paul’s new tack. I typically eat a lot more plant matter than Paul does, and look better than perhaps I ever have - I have more muscle on me than I did in high school. I feel great too. If Paul wants to only eat meat and fruit, I have no issues with that if he wants to do it, but I enjoy a much more varied diet, and my health markers are all pretty darn good. My issue with Paleo is cutting out all dairy. I now use goat yogurt, and believe all the MCTs in it are a major reason some Mediterranean islanders live so long. It is great source of protein and fats. It is very digestible - so is a great way to start your day as you get older.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #16

He was pretty chunky, early on, but not what I’d call fat. He’s a lot thinner, now. He’s not on a ketogenic diet, but his mantra has become “Just eat real food,” and it seems to have made a difference.

#17

I take all their opinions into consideration XX