Criticism of Virta's good results, coming from PCRM

[PaulL]

I don’t think that’s true. The evidence we have is that it is the dietary fat that gets stored, not the carbohydrates, unless the total carbs exceed the total energy requirements. In other words, as unsexy as it sounds, if you eat a caloric surplus, it will get stored.

De novo lipogenesis is a minor pathway, at least in healthy people. Carbs rarely get stored b/c they are usually consumed along with fat and have priority when used for energy.

This was tested at least twice. Here’s a study in which subjects were fed 1000 grams of carbs in a 5000 kcal diet. You’d think that if something triggered lipogenesis, then 1000 grams of carbs should do it:

De novo lipogenesis is a a reaction to stress on the liver; it is one of the results when the ethanol/fructose pathway gets overwhelmed, and if unchecked it leads to fatty liver disease, steatohepatitis, cirrhosis, and eventually, death. It is a separate process, at least as I understand matters, from the turning of carbohydrates into fatty acids for storage in adipose tissue. Those fatty acids get packaged into VLDL (if memory serves) for transport to the adipose, whereas the fat droplets produced by de novo lipogenesis remain trapped in the liver.

The study I read that suggested it was carbohydrate that gets turned into fat and stored, whereas dietary fat gets metabolised, was performed with radio-labeled nutrients, so it was pretty definitive. I will see if I can track down the reference all over again, since I read the paper before losing all my links to a computer accident. (Of course, if I have to watch a bunch of David Diamond and Benjamin Bikman videos to find the link again, I won’t be complaining!)

Moreover, a caloric surplus is not necessarily stored, because the body is perfectly capable of increasing metabolic expenditure in the face of a caloric excess, just as it is capable of reducing metabolic expenditure in the face of a caloric shortage. (Naturally, there are limits to both these reactions.) You are falling into the trap of considering caloric intake as what Dr. Fung calls a “one-compartment” problem, when in reality (as the good doctor points out) it is a “two-compartment” problem. The hormonal effects of the foods we eat must be taken into account; calories are not fungible. (In other words, a calorie’s worth of high-fructose corn syrup has quite a different effect on the body from that of a calorie’s worth of protein.)

[ajbennett]

However, I suspect that it will probably turn out that the increased consumption of both seed oils and sugar is the cause of our current poor health. I certainly wouldn’t be surprised, at any rate.

Good points. I tend to agree and do my best to avoid both sugar and seed oil for that very reason.

I think starch/glucose is more benign but often comes in problematic packages that have other issues (e.g. wheat, legumes).

I dipped a toe in the Jaminets’ concept of “safe starches” (Perfect Health Diet) a couple of years ago but I’m not sure it was helpful. It may have been the thin edge of a wedge in leading away from low carb which was working well for me, so I’m suspicious for that reason.

[PaulL]

I don’t place any faith in the concept of “resistant” starch, and the papers I’ve read were highly unconvincing, no matter how much my inner carb addict would love the idea to be true.

On the other hand, the Kempner rice diet is known to work (it is a very high-carb, extremely low-fat diet), but is apparently quite difficult to adhere to. However, the published results were phenomenal, for those who could stick to it.

[VirginiaEdie]

There is a food activist (whose name I am forgetting at the moment) who claims that it is seed oils, rather than sugar, that caused the diabetes and obesity epidemics.

Tucker Goodrich

[ajbennett]

I don’t place any faith in the concept of “resistant” starch, and the papers I’ve read were highly unconvincing, no matter how much my inner carb addict would love the idea to be true.

Jaminet(s) are identified with both resistant and safe starch, but the concepts are a little different.

As I understand it, resistant starch is sort of like a prebiotic or fiber: indigestible or weakly digestible starches that nourish gut bacteria and get fermented into SCFA.

Safe starch is Jaminet’s term for regular (human-digestible) starch that comes from sources without lectins, phytates, and other anti-nutrients. He gives the example of white rice, potato, taro, sweet potato, etc. (I’m suspicious of how “safe” sweet potato is given the increasing awareness and concern about oxalate.) Of course, keto people who want to stay keto probably don’t need to care very much about the “safe starch” concept.

[Mglasbrener]

The rice study seems to indicate that some very small amount of fat is required to metabolize carbs into fat. However, if I recall correctly, the dietary fat in this population study (correlative) was essentially zero.

[brownfat]

De novo lipogenesis is a a reaction to stress on the liver; it is one of the results when the ethanol/fructose pathway gets overwhelmed

Peter Attia’s latest podcast https://peterattiamd.com/rickjohnson/ is mostly about fructose and goes into the details of how it can be so fattening for us. It discusses studies suggesting the rate of fructose metabolism is a critical factor and directly contradicts the notion that fat storage is merely about caloric surplus as believed by @fabia.

[Mglasbrener]

Taunted discussed this too. Calories in/calories out is a mere energy statement that assumes everything else is equal. This is hardly true. Diet affects hormones which have a huge effect on calories out! There are isocaloric studies of rats that show this!

[Keto6468]

I will see if I can track down the reference all over again,

Please, I’d like to read it.

K

[MarkGossage]

However, the published results were phenomenal, for those who could stick to it.

Hence the use of the whip I guess…

[ajbennett]

Hence the use of the whip I guess…

The funny thing is, a lot of diets operate implicitly that way.

As a high-carb, high-fat vegan I was constantly hungry although I was at the same weight I am at now. I would literally google search “vegan motivation” because I needed motivation to continue.

Keto food actually fills me up. I can eat every few hours, not snack, fast for most of a day or a whole day. Works much better.

[Skinnyjeans]

My thoughts EXACTLY!

[PaulL]

Hence the use of the whip I guess…

I’m not into kink, myself, but I know what you mean, lol!

It is creepy to read about, but apparently, when Kempner whipped his patients it did help them, and he only did it because they asked . . . but still!