Oh I’m sure it will be closed at some stage. We cannot have a disagreement about CICO available to the masses.
‘As always, John missed the point’ is factual in my opinion. Whilst I haven’t read every post he’s made, the ones I have read here, he missed the point.
I wasn’t offended, more amused. Just pointing out the hyperbole.
To the point of the derailed thread - I do agree that when someone asks a question, it is useful to actually reply to the question as asked if possible, but then expanding on other ways to approach the topic if you think they are asking the wrong question.
That is exactly what I tried to do in my response post. I also tried to re-frame the question in the terms of “food intake” versus “calories” because of the apparent lightning-rod nature of that word.
It was a well-crafted and well-thought out post. I didn’t miss any points.
Please don’t tell me that we cannot tell someone, that they have missed the point.
This forum is littered with such comments. This thread is littered with comments about me and/or my beliefs about CICO. But that didn’t seem to bother you.
Again - fixated on a partial part of the post.
Sure - tell people they missed the point.
Don’t - tell people they are always wrong.
Good. It certainly wasn’t meant to be offensive.
Nothing that I have said here was meant to be offensive to anyone. We’re just discussing the subject, of peoples rights to ask questions, and get appropriate answers.
Well the OP thanked the “guy who missed the point” and said his post was very helpful.
In fact she thanked many posters on this thread… but not you.
I think your aggressive and confrontational tone calling other people’s posts rubbish, always missing the point, etc made her uncomfortable.
My 2 pesos.
See, third rail.
I do think, generally, the opinion on this forum isn’t based on science - it’s a visceral reaction that they back up with science. Because as far as science goes, NOTHING works for weight loss in the long term.
It touches emotions in a way other stuff doesn’t. The tenor of any CICO related thread is much different than, say, the current protein thread going. Which is understandable. And even justified to an extent - culturally, we place a lot of shame and blame on people for being overweight, and since CICO is the mainstream accepted wisdom, a lot of people have been blamed for not making it work, so yeah, there’s an emotional reaction.
That said, if someone isn’t losing weight and has a reasonable weight goal, I don’t think ‘hey, maybe you’re eating too much’ is unreasonable, and I don’t think any calorie reduction is going to crash your metabolism and cause your plants to die and a plague upon your house.
Purely anecdotally, I’ve seen pretty much every diet work…sometimes. By which I mean, I do actually know people who’ve done Weight Watchers and kept the weight off for decades. And people who’ve gone vegetarian and lost weight and kept it off. And people who’ve done Atkins and kept it off.
And a lot more people who’ve done all those and regained the weight. I don’t, and again, anecdotal, know anyone who did a diet, lost weight, and regained while still on the diet. I think, especially here, we discount the habit and cultural aspects.
And the latter, especially, is relevant to keto. The diet itself isn’t hard to sustain, but we live in a carb oriented culture, and so a lot of people ‘do keto’ or ‘do low carb’ and can’t sustain it because it’s going against the cultural current.
It’d be hard to parse out how much CICO is failing because of inherent failings of the body, or because it requires you to maintain a diet that’s not how most people are wired to act. I certainly think keto is easier, because it adjusts the hormonal stuff that makes compliance harder (in addition to other disadvantages).
But, you know, I’m colored by my experiences, both personal and observational. I stopped eating carbs years ago to try and get my blood sugar under control. And I discovered that, indeed, I was perfectly capable of maintaining a 280 pound body on just meat and cheese.
I counted calories, in a rough and ready way, to drop down to, currently, 225 - 230. I’ve been losing or maintaining for going on five years now, so it seems sustainable enough. Did I tank my metabolism? It doesn’t seem like it.
That said, I for sure have observed stuff that doesn’t fit well into a simple (and I emphasize simple) CICO model, because yeah, the body is dynamic. I know, for instance, my weight gets sticky at certain points (roughly every 20 pounds or so) where it becomes difficult to lose OR gain weight. That 225 - 230 I’m at now is one of those, actually, and a whole month of a LOT of food and not my usual exercise resulted in zero weight gain.
And my inner geek likes that because I measure stuff, I can actually SEE that dynamic at work. Still, I don’t think casting an eye towards the amounts you’re eating is inherently bad, if you’re not getting the results you want.
Thank you gor btinging up the point about culture. This is so true… Keto is not a challenge to people because of lack of calories or lack of meat and veggies and fat… its a lack of options for people. Society is virtually carb driven and cultural practices in North America revolve around engaging in social interaction over food. So we are interacting with carb driven people over food on a constant basis. We are swimming against the current.
Excellent Point!
I have been visiting a lot of dieting sites since restarting and I can see is that many people are trying to do both diets at once (CICO and KETO). They cut carbs drastically but also calories. In extreme cases some are trying to basically live on coffee with butter in it.
Perhaps that puts too much stress on their bodies. I do not know. I do see (anecdotally) that some people stall with this.
So while food amounts may come into play perhaps it is still best to tell someone who starts on Keto to focus on the foods and not the numbers that much (except that carb number)
I think all the finger-pointing is fairly silly, and that’s what will get the thread locked, if anything will, here. And I love to argue - have spent literally entire years of my life doing it on message boards. A year is only 8766 hours long, on average, afterall.
Yes - really, most of the world’s people do “CICO” now and are fine, although the percentage is declining. When weight gets to be a problem, then it starts to fail much more - due to the over-simplified and incomplete view that so many people have of it. Just reducing the “calories in” part and/or trying to raise the “calories out” part (as by excercising) rarely work in the long term, for weight loss. And when there are hormonal/metabolic issues in addition, that applies doubly and trebly.
I didn’t start gaining weight until age 28. People on this forum often say they wish they’d known what they know now, at earlier ages. I wonder - maybe I have to learn the hard way.
Very often true, Heather. It falls to the individual, in the end, even if it’s against one’s family, friends, co-workers, etc.
It also may be more the individual themself. I can handle all other people. But food and drink were my recreation. How does one handle the love of excess itself? Giving up addictions is tough.
Everyone wants a quick fix…its no different than a newbie trying to dive head first into a 21 day fast. Its impatience and desperation in trying to lose weight. They think that if they gained it fast, then you can lose it fast…which is wrong.
Thats the main issue with people trying to do CICO plus Keto. They think 2 is better than 1. I think what actually counts more is consistency though. Sticking with it.
It worked on CICO Bill’s thread, it could work on the aptly-named n=1’s thread 
If people are doing keto primarily for weight loss and are being successful I would expect eating to satiety etc to eventually cause a “natural” (as opposed to intentional) caloric deficit over the time of their success.
Also for those who pursue an intentional CICO the metabolism may downregulate by a lot maybe even 800 cals lower BUT it isn’t going to downregulate forever. So the person doing 400 cals per day will lose weight until sth else e.g. boredom or cravings derail him/her. 400 keto cals per day - the derailing may never come ?! The body isn’t going to reduce its requirements down to 400 cals per day by downregulating.
