Could there be such a thing as too much autophagy?

(Ohio ) #21

Peppermint is the appetite suppressant.

I truly believe ketosis is the body’s natural state. Despite pushback from doctors in my family.

#22

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=961f6f7216cdd239JmltdHM9MTY2ODcyOTYwMCZpZ3VpZD0wOTQ4OGMwZC1kODFkLTY1NzItMjExYy05ZTExZDkzMTY0ZmMmaW5zaWQ9NTIyNg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=09488c0d-d81d-6572-211c-9e11d93164fc&psq=when+does+autophagy+become+bad&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zaWltbGFuZC5jb20vbmVnYXRpdmUtc2lkZS1lZmZlY3RzLW9mLWF1dG9waGFneS8&ntb=1

Does this give more info you require? Yea link long and not sure why but it works when ya click it LOL

(Doug) #23

“Siim Land” … Well, there you go. :smile:

The process of autophagy may become dysfunctional or spin off into an unwanted direction towards cancer proliferation probably if the other mitochondrial and cellular processes are also not working properly.

Taking this one statement, I’d say that yes, something may happen if some other stuff is happening. It’s important to add that even as broad and nebulous as that is, it would only apply in a relative few cases out of many - the type-specific instances within the 100+ types of cancer where it could possibly be true.

#24

Ah, I actually have peppermint tea in my cupboard, however I don’t find drinking green tea makes me more hungry. Regarding doctors, it’s a bit like playing the lottery as to which doctor might actually be inclined to listen to you about the relation (that is very real) between health and diet. It’s not what they were educated to do. Most just want to prescribe drugs as that is their level of education and expertise. I consider myself very lucky really that my GP was so understanding when I told her I was interesting in the ketogenic diet, she gave me the green light, and also was supportive in my interest of IF. This is not the norm, I am sure. You might be right that as we ditch the carbs and the damage our metabolic system may have been subjected to through the modern diet and the pretty much outdated, but still very much reccommended food pyramid as nutritionists like to point out as patients’ standard guidance for healthy living, our bodies reach a more natural state, through ketosis or fat-adaptation.

#25

yea I feel ya on the info in the site I linked in that maybe it would trigger more research one might want or need about how to find more info off other info??? Just like you said above, something ‘may’ happen bad IF who are we and?? While it refers to a cancer cell mutation etc could it also be that we wreck ourselves just because who we are in changing our body cells thru autophagy? I don’t know truly. Me thinks our cellular level of who we are is not directly ever telling us these hardcore set in stone facts! Massive crapshoot on this level to me. To think autography per person can be ever put into a set xyz box for each of us ya know… But if one wants to wrangle their way thru more info, just getting more info on it cause lead them into a real path thru real science studies but I think in the end, there is not study to say ‘I will totally achieve’ ABC doing autography ever so?? Just a way forward if one wants more info kinda.

(Allie) #26

Not always true.

I can easily skip meals but that’s nothing new as I’ve done it my whole life, but actually deliberately fasting has never come easily to me. I’ve done many fasts of up to five days waiting for the lack of hunger people rave about to kick in, but it never did, I just felt worse and worse as the hours passed.

#27

so agree. forced fasting vs. against when my body says eat was the worst move I ever made…for me. I hit intermittent fasting timeline only thru eating all I need at all times and ‘fell into thru the body’ into my ‘what they call IF times’ in my eating day.

Let the plan show us our way forward. Each of us get this benefit if we allow it to happen and we just thrive in our changes then.

we super force, we lose all control for many of us, as we know ‘going on a diet’ is a forced misery from the ol’ days of dieting LOL… so feel ya on that one Allie

(Ohio ) #28

Totally agree. The caffeine hunger issue is on a multi day time frame because it depletes electrolytes. Peppermint as an appetite suppressant is more of a short term thing so my statement wasn’t exactly solid.

Doctors, dietitians, nutritionists they get complacent on their scientific background.

#29

Thanks Fangs. Very interesting article and much food for thought. I also find when it comes to autophagy the health of the individual must always be considered. I, for some reason, have not been able to go a whole day without eating. It could be because of my body’s response to Tamoxifen, or that I just don’t really have anything much to lose weight wise (I am 5.2, 114 pounds), but my body is only comfortable at 16:8. And perhaps in my case it wouldn’t do any good to experiment too much with autophagy and attempt extended fasts. But I do believe they could be beneficial for the healthy individual.

#30

I think I would feel the same though I have never attempted longer fasts. Except when I’ve come down with a particularly bad cold or flue and then I haven’t felt like eating anything, and of course I felt rubbish then but that could just as easily have been the cold/flue. Anyway, I believe in following the body, it’s pretty smart when you start to properly listen to it. Many of us don’t and listen to science instead, and nutritionists’ advice, and sometimes we end up learning something useful, but more often than not, we just kind of get in a muddle, lol, and begin to backtrack or puzzle where we actually are on the health path. Is it the right way? Well, who can say, but I believe in the body showing us where to go as opposed to the many bewildering road signs of science.

#31

well if we really think truths ‘against the real big picture’ who are we.

we were on the plains or on the coast or in the mountains eating whatever the heck came our way for survival :slight_smile:

The body would use whatever chance it had thru not eating to heal and adapt and change cells for repair as the body is going to do point blank in the science as it ‘does that’ for our survival ya know.

but NOW…we don’t hunt or truly move for our food. We force ‘dieting’ on us against what our body is begging for to eat and OUR FOOD supply is just crap of course and our stress levels are not just to survival and thrive and live, they are pay bills and hold onto whatever financials ya got to survive in this money age now ya know.

So now think it bigger terms of old life and universe and what the cells do vs what they do today kinda. In that there is a point where the body ‘truly goes into starvation’ mode and will wreck your metabolism, especially on today’s foods and lifestyle, vs. did we have longer on ‘real health benefits’ with actual healthier foods and bodies from the ancient times where autography would mean more to us.

I just see this is a very wishy washy type of science in that today can’t be the past. We know one solid thing. Physical body can not exist without great protein and fat. Not one carb is ever required from plant sources just for total survival. After that we go into a gazillion shades of gray on what ifs and those what ifs is what tells me FOLLOW what suits a person and don’t go off that path ever. You feel great, getting results and more and eating cleaner that suits you best, yes the goals you want will come. The well being comes also with time as we all know.

It is just one of those massive chats that are so full ‘of holes’ and what ifs and ‘think way back to old days’ and what it took for one to survive and be healthy vs what our lives are today. I also find this kinda very intriguing cause everyone can say ‘learn from our history’ and to me that means back to our food intake for sure.

again, just chat on it as I see alot of it :slight_smile: Eat a clean whole food Keto Plan and back to food basics means so much to each of us and try to think, leave the 'world of processed for us ‘keto plan’ foods by the wayside and we move even more forward to what the past has shown us about our food supply.

#32

I feel the problem for many when they cannot afford to eat as clean as desired, and that purity way of thinking is an easy trap to fall into, is that what people ate in the past doesn’t really apply to the here and now. Now, when you can’t afford grassfed butter, organic free range eggs or chickens, pork and beef, and realising full well the animals you eat have been grain-fed, but that is as far as your wallet is willing to stretch, particularly in these times of high inflation, which is getting worse, you simply cannot eat as clean a diet as you would wish, there will always be some inferior meat, some processing involved, so there is no comparison to how people used to eat. The same applies to the paleo diet, as the variety of fruits and vegetables they recommend are full of pesticides and have all been altered or modified. So it’s virtually impossible to sustain oneself unless compromising on the quality of the foods on one’s WOE. In the end we can only deal with the here and now, the state of our bodies, our environment and do our best whilst accepting that certain things are just beyond our control.

#33

oh so agree with ya on your points.

but one can eat simple and clean if one doesn’t buy hyped up manufactrued for us products we pay premium costs on thru their marketing and expense.

No one ever ‘needs organic’ unless one desires that or truly needs it but one can buy ‘burger fresh meat in bulk’ and not buy the pre-made fancy patted out burgers that are double the price ya know.

A whole chicken is tops lower in cost vs. ‘cut for us’ thru butchery in packs we ‘require for a meal’ we want so if one buys a whole chicken at way lower price per lb. we win, with a bit of work we have to do to cut it down if we want parts of it per meal :slight_smile:

I agree 100% alot is beyond our control but TONS IS IN OUR control at all times :slight_smile: Focus totally on what is IN YOUR control…we each make that personal walk, and when you hit what suits you, then you found your way forward in this crazy made for ya manufactured food world for you.

I never buy organic. I just eat clean meat which to me is just meat :slight_smile: or seafood fish or fowl and I even eat some sardines in olive oil cause that is all I can buy, and do well on that tiny bit of olive oil in that tin, but also I can’t ‘fish sardines’ from my door step so I do best for me.

Never think all or nothing. Think 1000% what suits you and how you can ‘clean up best’ off manufactured products for us to eat easily and think that bit of DO FOR ME as I need and it helps us tons on finding our sweet spot for better health and movement forward

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #34

There are a couple of lectures by the oncologist, Dr. Dawn Lemanne, on the YouTube channel of Low Carb Down Under, in which she discusses the usefulness of a ketogenic diet as an adjuvant therapy along with chemotherapy and radiation. A number of researchers have noted that the metabolic state induced by a ketogenic diet is very similar, in key ways, to fasting, but with the advantage of not causing hunger.

#35

And I agree with you and your wisdoms there🙂 I don’t buy organic either, I am addicted to bacon and that’s processed, pork chops and chicken thighs make my day, and I always treat myself to some pre-made burgers I like that only has salt and pepper as ingredients because they’re so delicious. I also eat a lot of smoked mackarel, again some processing involved, but only salt as ingredient. The eggs my partner and I buy are supposedly free range, but it’s the supermarked so who can say, I’m not too bothered about looking into it. I have discovered I love and look forward to the foods on this keto WOE, and eat myself to satiety on fatty meats. If it’s the right thing for me in the long run well, I’m sure my body will let me know. It’s certainly sustainable in so far as that it is enjoyable and I put high stock in good food, as well as all the other things that add to our quality of life.

#36

Yes. I wish I had known all this, about insulin, metabolic damage and keto, when I was undergoing chemotherapy and radiotherapy. But I was clueless and still ate a high carb, low fat diet. And of course my team of nurses and doctors were completely dismissive of the very notion diet had anything to do with it. We are often so very wise in retrospect and that is a bit of a curse of humanity, we have to step in some serious foul stuff before we even notice it. Because we believe we’re invincible, that’s our ego whispering nonsense into our ear. Anyway, I am hopeful whatever damage may have happened to my metabolic system I can at least prevent cancer from reoccurring and keep other illnesses at bay as well.

(Jane) #37

I had breast cancer in 2008. Fortunately it was caught early and I was treated with a lumpectomy followed up with 6 weeks of radiation. I too ate a high carb, low fat diet and wish I had known about the benefits of keto back then.

I was prescribed Tamoxifen but I declined to take it. The first few mammograms after my treatment were nerve-wracking, but since I have been cancr-free for 14 years they have become routine.

#38

Really? Maybe it works with some and if they are still at a normal weight… I have heard about underweight people forcing a longer fast (not too long for someone with enough fat and fasting experience but several days) and ending up in hospital… Okay, experience with fast matters too, surely there is a huge individual factor but barely any extra fat just can’t give us enough energy for a longer fast. Definitely not if the one in question follows that formula regarding how much energy we can get from how much body fat per day (poor formula doesn’t work even for me, I have plenty of extra fat but it shouldn’t be enough for more than one day of fast and it is when my body is on board and forget about WANTING its daily food). But if one is really thin, they can’t afford multiple days. Even if they survive, it’s probably not healthy - as just existing underweight isn’t healthy…
But just slim, healthy, experienced people does EF, yes. And some slim people can afford (it’s not good but they survive just fine) losing a few kgs of fat and muscles on a mere contest… (Running for days in the Himalaya so an extreme one where barely anyone competed. Our ultramarathonist couldn’t eat even remotely properly there, poor Hungarian is used to being below 1000m… Not like it’s easy on anyone… It made an impact on me, hearing about this story.)

#39

That’s wonderful to hear Jane, that you’ve been cancer free for 14 years. I didn’t dare to decline it, and though Tamoxifen comes with a few unfortunate side effects, it has also been reassuring to me. My cancer was also caught early, but was particularly aggressive and fast growing. I was diagnosed at 36, now I am 39 though I look a lot younger, I’m lucky that way though I doubt it will last forever. I feel that in the end I was very lucky. I had three surgeries, as well as chemotherapy and radiotherapy, it was a bit like they were throwing everything they had in their arsenal at the cancer, that was what my breast surgeon and his team told me, and it was a bit of a whirlpool the details of which are slightly blurred now. Anyway, that’s me, we’re all different and we all have to do what feels right for us, though sometimes with limited knowledge, that’s not always that easy, so we do our best and put our best foot forward, life is too precious to spend it in fear.

#40

I agree Shinita, for an underweight person an extended fast could result in far more problems than benefits. Dr Jason Fung states himself that an underweight person should not fast. Or pregnant and breast feeding women, as I have seen a few examples of women in that situation attempting to fast as well. For strong healthy and fit individuals who use fasts as a kind of maintenance I don’t think it’s a problem, but this obsession with losing every last bit of body fat, perhaps we’re healthier with that little bit of body fat. I don’t know my own percentage of body fat as mine is all tied with the lipoedema but to any passer-by on the street I would be regarded as slim. In the end I believe there is too much obsession with thinness and beauty ideals and that, unless health comes first, those ideals are just silly ideas spewed from the fashion industry. So if your body is metabolically healthy and you carry a few extra pounds, I don’t believe those extra pounds are detrimental to your health, as we truly do come in all shapes and sizes and the body will reach a comfort weight, where it’s happy to stay. I don’t believe it’s a good idea to argue with it and proceed to slim down further if it’s not necessitated by a health condition.