Correct Protein intake and Fasting question

fasting
protein
#22

Yeah, I’m thinking that 35g is way too low. It’s nice to hear your experiences with protein.

#23

Thank you :grinning:

#24

Thank you. This protein recommendation seems far more in line with what Carb Manager has set for me. I’ll stick with this amount as I feel good on it.

So you’re suggesting going back to three meals a day? I can do that, I think. I’ve never been much of a breakfast eater but willing to give it a go to see if it helps with the fasting.

‘Nicely lean’. Please tell my baby pooch that! :frowning:

#25

THAT, is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, I HOPE you misunderstood, but I’m sure you didn’t. The go-to is 1g/lb of bodyweight which has wiggle room built in for muscle building, muscle sparing during fat loss, both directions. Most people severely under consume protein. Plus, as we get older we get resistant there and most Doc’s (who don’t live under a rock) recommend upping it past that to account for it. Then you’ll see the 0.8 per kg of lean mass constantly repeated, I’ve yet to see that come out of anybody that looks like they’re in a good place muscle wise, and I don’t mean look like a bodybuilder, I mean look like a healthy amount. All the Docs in the health and low carb space that actually do resistance training all agree on the tried and true 1g/lb, or 2.2g/kg.

Carb manager is a little low as well, but way better. I’d say bodyweight is ideal, but 100g should be a minimum of anybody that doesn’t want to be bones and welcome osteoporosis one day. There’s a reson older people fall (usually a small insignificant one) then break their hips! Weak bones and no muscle to protect the weak bone.

If you want to follow a Doc that’s low carb and Keto friendly, and understands how to NOT wind up a brittle bone bag, look into Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. There’s also the fact muscle leads to a higher resting metabolic rate and has direct links to longevity.

Also a good note I think for most, aside from practicing what she calls “Muscle Centric Medicine” at the beginning of her career she was a Geriatrician, so she spent the first chunk of her career seeing what happens to us as we age without proper muscle mass and how horrible that outcome always is.

https://www.youtube.com/@DrGabrielleLyon

#26

No, I absolutely heard that correctly. I replayed it three times just to be sure. 2.2g per kg is easily doable so I will aim for that although I think I read somewhere that too high protein can be converted to glucose? Or did I misread that?

Thanks for the recommendation about Dr Lyon. I will look her up as low BMR is something I do suffer with so I’d like to increase it that’s for sure.

#27

I’m sure you did, that’s a debunked fear referring to Gluconeogenisis, couple years back it was the boogeyman of keto, basically that if you ate too much protein it was going to become Twinkies, the saying “too much steak turns into cake” and other dumb crap came from it. In the end it’s not a real fear anybody has to care about. We now know that Gluconeogeneisis is demand driven, not supply.

On the low RMR, assuming you’re working out, reverse dieting is what you want to look into. Fasting is also the last thing I’d be doing if your metabolic rate is already bad! I’ve read all the same stuff you probably have that it won’t slow a metabolic rate, real life seems to disagree with that one huge! Took me over a year to get mine back up after fasting destroyed mine.

#28

So it sounds like I need to quit the 18:6 and start eating breakfast again. I had been beginning to suspect as much and your comments have confirmed this.

I’ve just started working out again after a four year break. I’m doing some of the Caroline Girvan workouts on YouTube with weights and using as heavy as I can. I’m massively enjoying it and keen to improve my fitness and muscle mass. Getting my BMR up would be a huge bonus and I should probably concentrate on that as opposed to getting rid of my baby pooch with IF.

#29

I’d say that’d be best based on my experience, as well as many others I’ve dealt with other places while rambling about fasting screwing us all up. If you’re not tracking (you’ll need to). Cronometer is a good one for using the free version, for one that will figure out everything for you and keep you on track, MacroFactor has become my go-to. If I had that years ago I wouldn’t have been able to screw myself up as I would have seen my calorie expenditure dropping like a rock in real time. Having my RMR measured was how I learned that I was that bad, I was eating WAY over what my crap metabolism could handle which wasn’t a lot sadly.

(KM) #30

Tiny eye roll. Just a tiny one. I only meant that a 100 pound person with 7 pounds of unexcreted poo and 5 pounds of hair would need an additional 12% protein allowance for no reason whatsoever. The same scenario on a 300 lb person would only result in a 4% increase.

#31

I hear you. It was the benefits of autophagy I was chasing which obviously won’t happen unless I can get some EF’s in. Hey ho.

When you talk about tracking are you just talking calories/macros or including activity in that too? How did you measure your RMR? I have one of those sets of scales that measures body fat, muscle weight, water percentage etc. I’m sure it’s not 100% perfect but having had it for 6 weeks the results seem consistent (maybe consistently wrong :woman_shrugging:t2:). I’m suspecting I’m eating more than my BMR says I should but I just tend to eat when I’m hungry which tends to be lunchtime and dinner with no snacking before or after) and I eat til I’m full; not more nor less. Gosh, when did trying to be the healthiest best version of yourself become so darned complicated :rofl:

#32

You didn’t, it is an old belief and debunked - but high protein is actually problematic for certain people, that’s why some carnivores eat super fatty and little protein per meal. But most of us aren’t like that.
There is such a thing as too much protein and protein toxicity but most of us simply can’t reach that accidentally. Even my high protein is lower than that and I automatically stop somewhere above 200g protein (and it is just the occasional day), my body is pretty smart regarding protein, apparently. I am physically unable to eat too little or too much. Nice. I don’t know how but many people manage to undereat protein, overeating it is rare.
It’s easier if someone is more sensitive to it, some people need a pretty low protein intake (still higher than 35g, that’s almost nothing) but that’s a special condition. Normally one shouldn’t worry about too high protein and sad that so many people do. I see that too often on this forum. But we are here and tell them they shouldn’t go for that low intake. But 35g, I rarely see such a minuscule number, I can’t even imagine a proper meal like that…
But yes, I saw such numbers myself, certain groups have odd beliefs.

You don’t need to eat breakfast if you don’t want. It’s very important to eat in a way as it works for you. I started with 3 meals on keto (later it automatically became 2 but then came carnivore and things got chaotic but it will be normalized one day) and my first meal was in the afternoon but 1-2 meals are fine too if that comes (almost) naturally, I mean you don’t need to work against your own body and it doesn’t cause undereating. As that’s obviously bad, we need our nutrients.

#33

Ahhhh but it will though, Autophagy is a normal function of our bodies, it happens without fasting. Fasting speeds it up, but IMO not needed either.

All your macros, I don’t track activity because that’s always a guess of what you actually burned off. The tracker I use makes it’s decisions based on your results, not what you told it you did. Which I like.

Went to a private gym that had a Calorimiter, a lot of cycling shops have them as well as cyclists like to know their Vo2 Max, which is the same machine. They’re in clinical places as well, but harder to get access to. Weight loss places always have them as well. You basically go in fasted in the AM, they strap a mask to your face/nose and you sit in in a chair for 15min and by measuring heart rate and Co2 it gives you a number. Mine seemed to be pretty dead on.

I could never go by my hunger/satiety signals. I’m ALWAYS hungry, doesn’t matter how much I eat. The only time I’ve ever not had a crazy appetite was during that period when my RMR slowed down to a crawl, I made the stupid mistake of buying into the whole “my bodies just eating my fat which is why I’m not hungry”…WRONG!

To add an asterisk to that one, right now it’s pretty controllable because of Semaglutide…best thing ever! Doesn’t wipe out my appetite like it does most people, but makes me almost normal, which for me is a win!

(KM) #34

LOL. I had the exact same thought today. Went grocery shopping. No, no, no, yes - no wait no, no, no, almost but no, no, hell no, no, no, no. Came home with one can of wildcaught tuna and a bunch of organic radishes. Sigh.

#35

Hi VickyH. Even at only 5 feet, 45kg seems somewhat low body weight to me. Have you had a DEXA scan to assess your bone build density? I am 5.2 and 52 kg. Because of my lipoedema, I carry all my fat on my lower half. My body fat percentage is higher than yours, though according to NHS’ BMI calculation I’m well within normal range. As to my metabolism, I’ve no idea what state it’s in, but I follow my hunger and satiety signals, and don’t believe in restricting myself. I don’t track.

And fasting, I can never do. My WOE is a lot closer to carnivore than keto, though I eat a small amount of vegetables, or nuts and berries on some days. Still mostly I eat meat, pork, chicken and beef, and fish and other seafood and eggs. Would you mind sharing what you eat on your WOE? I, like you, also wanted to fast for the autophagy, but I can’t imagine myself ever fasting for 24 hours, let alone 60. I start to feel ill. But like lfod14 mentioned, some autophagy takes place all the time regardless, if not as much as when you’re fasting, it’s a natural process that takes place in the body whether we fast or not. It goes on while we sleep, for example. And eating a ketogenic WOE I am sure will invite more of that autophagy than if you were on a HC/LF WOE, as well as other benefits.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #36

In the early days of a ketogenic diet, don’t force anything. Eat when you’re hungry, stop when you are satisfied, don’t eat until you are hungry again. If you need to snack, do so and eat more at the next meal. The idea is to minimise the amount of time during the day when insulin needs to be higher.

Even on low-carb/keto, the body will hang on to excess fat if it thinks a famine is going on, so don’t deliberately cut calories. Unless your metabolism has been damaged by too much calorie-cutting, eating to satiety should give you enough calories. If not, do a forum search on “reverse dieting” to learn how to bring your metabolism up. The British nutrition activist Sam Feltham did an experiment, eating a 5,000 calorie ketogenic diet for 28 days. He gained a little over a kilo, as I recall, and simultaneously lost some fat (but where it came from, I have no idea; look up his Web site and see the photos he took each day). He did the equivalent experiment with a high-carb, low-fat diet and gained a considerable amount of fat.

#37

I looked up Sam Feltman, brave man who conducted such an experiment, I wasn’t surprised he gained weight on the SAD WOE, but that he gained only 1.3kg and lost inches of his waist by increasing his calorie intake to 5000 calories on a ketogenic WOE was certainly interesting, and unexpected. I’m pretty sure though, had a woman conducted the same experiment the results would have been quite different on both WOEs due to hormones.

(Doug) #38

We all should do Sam Feltman’s exact routine (if we want to) and see just what happens.

(KM) #39

Funny, I actually asked myself if I’d do it this afternoon, or how I’d change his methodology. Eventually decided I’m happy where I am and want to go further in the same direction, I don’t need to prove the science. Kudos to anyone who wants to try, though.

#40

I’m with kib1, I’ll just continue doing what’s working for me. I finally have more energy, and am walking 2-3 times a day. My WOE is meat based, with just a few vegetables, nuts and berries in very small quantities and not everyday, no idea about the amount of calories as I don’t track, but with all the fatty meats, eggs and cream I eat, it’s probably a fair bit. There are more experiments that could be done with increasing fat intake. When Dave Feldman and Siobhan Huggins increased their fat intake, they discovered their LDL cholesterol went down. That’s also very interesting, for those who like to conduct such experiments. I’m staying right here though where my body is comfortable and happy at the mo.

#41

Sure and I suspect most men would gain a lot of fat too. People rapidly gain fat on extreme low-carb too, at least some who are able to overeat quite seriously, I definitely don’t say it’s true in general or even very common, I don’t know that… But people experience fat gain on any diet, keto isn’t magical and the human body react in more or less logical way to excessive food intake. And even the hormones can do various things I am sure but I am not knowledgeable about there, merely wouldn’t ever say something very very generally unless it’s too basic like we all need fat and protein to survive. We all should see what happens in our very individual case though other people’s experiences and science may help a lot to find a pretty nice starting point.

That would be interesting :slight_smile: I fear (okay, I hope) even I couldn’t overeat that seriously on keto - and I would like someone to pay for it… Extra fat costs little but I inevitably would eat a ton of protein as well…
I only did 2800 kcal :slight_smile: Nothing happened to my weight, obviously. I don’t remember my woe but it doesn’t matter if I eat lots of sugar, my body has a wide maintenance range either way. 5000 kcal would cause fat gain on a carbier diet if I extrapolate from my experiences, I don’t know if it would be as slow as with 3-4000 kcal or quicker, I would expect maybe 1 kg a month and that’s super quick for me but I probably would quit on the first or second day… But I would expect a similar result on carnivore. But I am aware I am not typical. I am unique as everyone but more atypical than most…?

I went too deep into things again… I should focus on eating as little as possible, as rarely as possible now… Not daydreaming about eating as much as I short-sightedly desire :smiley: (But even that is way below 5000 kcal, thankfully. 5000 would be between torture and impossibility I think. Or I could be super active… Oh if someone would sponsor my experiment with very great and varied items, maybe I would try… But nope, I am lazier than that. My current activity is impressive enough from me.)

Oh experiments are interesting :slight_smile: Even with my curiosity, I can’t drastically change my fat/protein ratio for longer term (even for days)… My protein hardly goes below 130g and I don’t want it to go much higher… My calorie intake changes a lot though but it’s still not a big range. I often plan fat fast or similar days as that’s the only case when I am able to go very low with protein without being hungry.) But that’s for short experiments. It would be interesting to see what would happen at various fat/protein ratios but as mine wouldn’t change so very much, it probably would depend on the satiation effect of the chosen food items - and mostly the timing. Not so much on the fat/protein ratio…
I couldn’t care less about my LDL, I mean, surely there are good and bad numbers so it matters but it’s not my job to care about it, it’s my body’s job. I just need to feed it well but it tells me what it wants. It worked this far I suppose :slight_smile: