Combining keto diet with Dr. Valter Longo teachings?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #1

Dr. Valter Longo is a well-known specialists in longevity. He pushes hard for a “fast mimicking diet”, which for him means very low protein based.

For example:

He argues in favor of vegetables, legumes, olive oil, nuts and salmon, for example.

He dislikes the idea of a keto diet, even though his FMD is closer in spirit to a keto diet (high fat content, for example).

In my case, I am even farther away from his idea, since I am using Lignaform, which is high in protein (Pronokal, which I used before, is the same). But of course, what it seems to happen is that high protein seems to work (in the sense of reducing food cravings), at least on the short term.

But on the long term, Dr. Longo heavily argues for low protein consumption (and only plant based, i.e. legumes, and not animal based) for a long and healthy life.

Is there a possible combination of these two powerful ideas, i.e. keto diet and Dr. Valter Longo ideas?

For example: use a keto diet for the short term, to be able to go down to your desired weight. And when you are there, switch to Dr. Longo diet, mostly vegetables, legumes, olive oil, nuts and salmon.

Any ideas?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #2

For example, look at 1:01:19 and afterwards: Dr. Valter Longo argues for exactly what I said: use keto on the short term to lower your body weight, but then switch to the “longevity diet” (based on his epidemiologic & clinical studies), which is mostly vegetables, legumes and just very little animal protein (mostly fish).

It seems to make sense, right? And it seems relatively easy to sustain on the long term, at least for somebody like me that was raised on a Mediterranean diet.

#3

Lignaform?

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #4

This:

https://www.dietalignaform.com/

is what I am using. But I am not promoting in any way. In fact, I am only using it because my doctor uses it. If not, I would use something different. The key idea (together with Pronokal, which I used successfully many years ago) is a high protein diet. And according to Dr. Longo, a high protein idea is a very bad idea, at least on the long term (but according to his statement in the video, even though it is a long term bad idea, it could be a good short term idea, since it really helps to reduce weight a lot on the short term).

(Robert C) #5

This might depend on age.

Protein intake seems to be a very controversial topic.

One point of view is that it should be high in your youth (in to your twenties) to fill you out best (growth).
Then limited to avoid growth of cancer as your needs for growth do not exist anymore - i.e. you’re not getting any taller (30s to 50s).
Then back up again to ward off sarcopenia in your 60s plus - this seems to assume the cancer risk developing over a multi-decade period is less of a risk than the muscle loss reducing you to a wheelchair and eating dinner through a straw.

Specifically - it might be a bad idea for an already thin and lightly muscled person to start a “longevity diet” in their 60s - seems like it might make things worse.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #6

Then, in the 30s to 50s, for a person who is not thin and lightly muscled, a low protein diet should be recommended, no? In fact, Dr. Longo says exactly the same: increase protein consumption when old (an old lady started eating raw meat on a daily basis when she was 100 years old).

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

A well-formulated ketogenic diet also mimics fasting, which Dr. Longo doesn’t seem eager to admit. A lot of the questions about how much protein to eat seem to be based on speculations that may or may not turn out to be accurate.

For instance, Dr. Ron Rosedale was pushing eating the absolute minimum of protein, 0.6 grams/day/kg lean body mass, the bare amount necessary to replace our daily nitrogen loss. His reasoning is that anything more than that risks stimulating the mTOR pathway, which in his view accelerates aging.

It is clear from other sources that we need more protein than that in order to provide building blocks for muscle and bone growth and raw materials for gluconeogenesis, an essential process in the absence of dietary carbohydrate.

The opposite end of the spectrum is Prof. Benjamin Bikman, whose research seems to indicate that the primary determinant is the amount of carbohydrate in the diet. In a low-carbohydrate diet, the resulting low ratio of insulin to glucagon keeps mTOR in check, while promoting other healthy processes. His logic is that we need a balance between anabolism and catabolism, not one state over the other. He also has a concern about the loss of muscle as we age, so his position is that we need more protein, not less, as we get older.

In any case, we need to remember the protein needs of children, especially those of young people in the midst of their pubertal growth spurt. Their protein intake should not be restricted at all.

ETA: since our ancestors managed somehow to survive without any understanding of calories, macro/micronutrients, mTOR, and so forth, I wonder if we could avoid having to worry about all this stuff by simply eating real, whole foods, and not overdoing the grains and sugars.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #8

Good answer.

In the end, what convinces me more about Dr. Longo is not so much about mTOR (which minimizes aging through a pescetarian diet) but his analysis on centenarians.

All centenarians belong to societies which were close to being pescetarian. Of course, correlation does not imply causation. But it seems a good point nonetheless.

On the other hand, I see with my own eyes that a keto diet (in my case, high protein one) makes wonders to reduce weight and, most importantly, to change completely food cravings.

What to do? Sure, what you suggest makes sense. Any diet eating “real” food, and reducing grans and sugars, will work well. The same for keto diet than for Dr. Longo. But then there are other decisions to take: high protein based on meat? (carnivores, in one extreme)? Or fish and legumes, as Dr. Longo seems to suggest, for a pescetarian-high-carbs-not-sugars-not-starches one?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

The native tribes of the Great Plains of the midwestern U.S. were originally noted for the number of centenarians in their populations—this, of course, was before they adopted the white man’s diet. Given that they were land-locked, they ate mostly meat and few fish. My understanding is that the issue is more one of what constitutes an adequate protein intake, rather than what its source should be.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #10

And how do you define an “adequate protein” intake? For example, within red meat, white meat, fish and legumes, is there a way to define adequate protein intake?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

The usual recommendations fall within the range of 1.0-2.0 g/kg of lean body mass daily.

The recommendation on this site is 1.0-1.5 g/kg.

Virta Health uses recommendations based on height from the old Metropolitan Life Insurance actuarial tables that used to be prominently displayed in U.S. doctors’ offices.

Benjamin Bikman recommends around 2.0 g/kg.

Raubenheimer and Simpson posit that mammals have an instinct to eat a certain amount of protein (the amount varies by species, but in the case of human beings generally ends up at 15% of calories). Ted Naiman uses their hypothesis to promote a Protein:Energy ratio to rate food quality; his claim is that while protein insufficiency is real, protein excess is impossible.

However, the body can accommodate only a certain amount of circulating amino acids, and past that limit they get de-aminated and re-purposed. If the de-amination process overwhelms the uric-acid/urea cycle, then death from ammonia toxicity becomes a real possibility. I suspect that Naiman’s point is that appetite signaling will probably inhibit most people from eating enough protein to risk ammonia toxicity.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #12

This site has a recommendation of the % of carbs/fat/protein (in calories terms)? Dr. Longo is 60/30/10, which I guess is almost impossible to obtain from a keto diet.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #13

No diet that provides 60% of its calories from carbohydrate is going to be low-carb enough to permit ketosis.

(Doing a Mediterranean Keto) #14

And what is your current assessment of both diets? Of course, this forum is about keto diets. But on the other side, it seems the page is quite scientific, so maybe the forum is not so much “or with me or against me”.

Is it possible to make a reasonable assessment of both diets, with their pros and cons?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #15

Most people on these forums are here because of metabolic concerns, though we do have a strong contingent of members who are primarily interested in weight loss. I personally feel that whatever works for you, and which promotes your goals, is right for you. But if that involves something other than a well-formulated ketogenic diet, we are not really in a position to help you.

The purpose of these forums is specifically to provide information and assistance to those who have already decided, for whatever reasons, that they wish to eat a well-formulated ketogenic diet. Discussions of other diets are really not within our remit, since we have no expertise with them.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #16

:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

#17

You might find this paper of interest, if you’re into how things work. Theoretically, humans in good health can be trusted to find the right amount and types of amino acids available to them. I think specific food cravings are a way these goals are met, assuming you’re in tune with what your body is trying to tell you.

Restriction of dietary protein intake increases food intake and energy expenditure, reduces growth, and alters amino acid, lipid, and glucose metabolism. While these responses suggest that animals ‘sense’ variations in amino acid consumption, the basic physiological mechanism mediating the adaptive response to protein restriction has been largely undescribed. In this review we make the case that the liver-derived metabolic hormone FGF21 is the key signal which communicates and coordinates the homeostatic response to dietary protein restriction. … FGF21 occupies a unique endocrine niche, being induced when energy intake is adequate but protein and carbohydrate are imbalanced. Collectively, the evidence thus suggests that FGF21 is the first known endocrine signal of dietary protein restriction.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302218300438