Coffee & Insulin Resistance


(FRANK) #1

Hi All,

Looking for feedback from those folks that are sensitive to coffee in regard to insulin/ blood sugar regulation. Been seeing many folks who on are on keto/carnivore that did not begin to see weight loss/ insulin reduction until they gave up coffee. Questions:

Is it the coffee or the caffeine that raises cortisol?
Can you just switch to decaf?
How much impact did giving up coffee have?
What coffee replacements have you gone to?

I gave up a lot of stuff ( smoking, drinking, carbs, - all bad) and have come too far to accept defeat. Been at this over two years, no sneaky carbs on BBB&E, and things are not happening to any degree.

Truely love my coffee, so I just want to make sure before I pull the plug.


(Joey) #2

Looking at your profile, you report having gone keto back in 2017 and lost 25lbs. Kudos for sticking with wise health choices for so long.

So I’m left wondering: What exactly is it that’s not working for you? E.g., is it your morning glucose levels? Bloodwork results that are disappointing? Lack of progress on further weight loss goals? Something else?

If you could please clarify a bit what outcomes are not happening for you, it would help folks on the forum be more helpful in offering concrete suggestions for what you might try in order to change things.

(Disclosure: I truly love my single cup of caffeinated coffee each day, too!)

BTW, What is “BBB&E”? …never heard this abbreviation before.


(FRANK) #3

Thanks for responding Joey,

“BBB&E” - Beef, Butter, Bacon & Eggs.

So, I’ve been at this for a while and my progress has been really slow. Stubborn insulin resistance. CGM (Stelo) for 1 month, avg glucose was 95, always within 70 - 140 range, never spiked due to strict carnivore. Weight loss since Sept 24 was only 25 lbs. Morning fasted glucose always high, avg. 125. Haven’t had any recent bloodwork, but last test revealed HemoA1c was 5.8. Triglycerides were 125.

I guess I am hoping for better weight loss progress. Still at 295lbs. I would also like to get off my blood pressure meds (amlodipine and lisinopril). Blood pressure is only elevated (130/85) at Dr’s office.

My goal is to reverse my insulin resistance and get back to normal blood sugar levels and lose weight. I don’t care about cholesterol (last checked at 134). Want to get down to a manageable weight. The funeral home charges extra for heavier customers!

Just thinking if I dump coffee and ditch the meds, that might help move the needle. Next Dr appt I’m going to suggest dropping the meds to see what my actual base line is, but to me, coffee is the 3rd essential macronutrient. BTw, I drink it black mainly, no sweeteners. If I’m jonesing for a treat, i may have a dash of cream. BTW, 68 yrs old.


(Joey) #4

TL;DR: Sounds like you’re doing reasonably well. So besides suggesting you take a clear-eyed, no-foolin’ look at your menu to ensure you’re not perhaps eating more in the way of carbs than you’ve recognized, I’ve got no meaningfully constructive ideas. Although your profile said keto since 2017, you’ve also said above that you’ve been doing keto since Sept '24? If so, then after just 7 mos in, you’re making clear progress. Stay the course.

Here’s the long version…

Heavier folks hit various plateaus as their bodies change inside - all kinds of things self-adjust at different rates. Give yourself time. My guess is you spent many decades getting to roughly 300 lbs. So you deserve to be patient with yourself as you stay on your new healthy path. Kudos.

I’m not finding much in what you’ve shared to suggest there’s a significant issue holding you back. If you started at 320 lbs - now at 295 lbs - you’re heading in the right direction. These things take time and you’re making genuine progress.

You haven’t shared your height or BMI, but I’ll assume you’re still considerably well over your healthy best weight, so you’ve got a journey ahead. This is especially the case given where you’ve started from, which again, likely took decades to reach.

Blood pressure often comes down naturally in conjunction with a “trimmer” waistline/chest. Have you lost much in the way of waist inches with those 25lbs? Or did it come off from elsewhere thus far?

And if your BP is genuinely elevated only at the Dr’s office, you’re in good company with many folks. (Yeah, it’s a stressful moment to get measured.)

Regarding insulin resistance, do you have specific bloodwork on that front? E.g., Insulin readings allow you to also calculate a HOMA-IR metric? NMR Lipid profile allows you to get another glimpse at particle sizes, pattern A vs B, which also provides measures of IR?

And while your fasting glucose at 125 is still somewhat higher than a keto WOE usually produces, the avg of 95 isn’t bad at all. It’s the excursions that are always the most important (I’d read somewhere that meaningful tissue glycation doesn’t occur until you’re above 145, though not quite sure about this).

Look, 125 mg/dl glucose as a dawn effect level is not ideal. You’ve likely done years of inflammation-related damage to mitochondria while putting on the weight. But if you’re testing yourself at postprandial glucose levels (1-2hrs after meals) and not tipping beyond 140 - from a 125’ish morning baseline - this suggests to me that you’re heading in a good direction to address the metabolic syndrome you’ve accumulated and reversing the accumulated insulin resistance issues from the past.

HbA1c of 5.8 is certainly not excessive given your history prior to your recent eating changes. Pretty darn good. Yeah, trigs are a bit higher than expected given keto but not off the charts. For context, how’s your HDL in comparison to those trigs?

Again, the best I can offer is to ensure that you’re not eating more in the way of carbs than you might be leading yourself to assume? I’m not accusing you! Just encouraging you to be sure you’re treating yourself the best way you deserve to promote long term progress and healing.

I’d also be asking about alcohol intake, but you said you gave that up (very helpful!) so let’s pass on that possibility. Well done.

I don’t know just how much coffee you’re drinking and yes, some purists will encourage you to give that up, too. Not me. Unless caffeine makes your heart race, produces AFIB, etc., then a single mugful of black coffee (or even with heavy cream!) each morning is simply not going to make a massive difference in where you go from here.

So that’s my personal $0.02 on coffee. Sure, if you’re drinking 3-4 cups, okay then that’s another matter. But a single cup of dark roast? No problem for the vast majority of us.

:vulcan_salute:


#5

It’s the caffeine doing it, whenever you take a stimulant that amps you up, you also up Cortisol and other stress hormones, which is fine, and it’s supposed to do that.

Problem is for the slow caffeine metabolizes like me, that will take 10+ hours to clear it (without a noticeable energy bump) where a caffeine sensitive person will get a burst of energy for a while and then go back to normal.

You (can) drink caffeine and still get some of the health benefits of coffee.

Doesn’t make much difference whether I drink it or not, until around 3pm or so, I’ll get the headaches.

I’ve tried Everyday Dose and Ryse, both very different, but both good. Technically Everyday dose still has some coffee in it, Ryse is all mushrooms.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

Yes. :smile:

Certainly.

Two weeks of headaches, that’s about it.

Seltzer water.

If you read around on these forums, you will learn two important facts about coffee:

  1. Research shows that coffee is terrible for keto, because it inhibits ketosis.

  2. Research shows that coffee is highly beneficial for keto, because it promotes ketosis.

Make of all this what you will.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

You would think so, but this, I am not so sure about. If you analyse the discussions, you see that the issue is only with coffee, never with tea, caffeinated soft drinks, chocolate, or other sources of caffeine. Every single time I have challenged people on these forums to tell me precisely what it is about coffee that is the issue, what I have heard back, every single time, is :cricket::cricket::cricket::cricket:


(KM) #8

Coffee has a lot more caffeine than any other beverage that’s not specifically designed as a caffeine delivery system. And “a cup” is rarely 8 oz. - my cup is 28 oz! (Granted a lot of cream, but probably still more than double an actual measured cup). My bet is still on the caffeine being the significant element.

To @FGH, I don’t have any specific advice, other than to quit for a week or two before a Dr. appointment and see what happens to your numbers. I always figure I can try anything, as long as I know I can always change my mind again. :slightly_smiling_face:


#9

I know a handful of people that even a tea will send them off the rails, but they’re caffeine sensitive, a problem I wish I had. But most coffee averages almost double the caffeine of most teas, so that has to come into play. But at any rate, any stimulant will bump up cortisol, how much is super individual.

With coffee it’s almost impossible to judge, especially when the person is making it themselves. They could be sending it through a normal drip coffee maker, french press, or 10oz worth of water through half the coffee they should be using in a stale K-Cup, all of it would drastically change the caffeine content (and taste).

Being a slow caffeine metabolized I’ve looked into a way to attempt to hack that a million times, all the studies I’ve read just reference that caffeine is a central nervous system stimulant, which is why it raises cortisol.


(Joey) #10

Precisely. :roll_eyes:


(Bob M) #11

Most of the equipment we use isn’t great. I did a TKD (targeted keto diet) yesterday, where I ate about 50g carbs at my first meal after my body weight workout. I had ketones of 0.2 mmol/l before my workout (early in the morning, ended before 7am), ate around 10 am. Ate pretty fatty meat (brisket) with some Raos. Took ketones later before dinner, so maybe 6 pm, and got a 1.7 mmol/l. I was shocked, considering I rarely see that ever, and certainly not after eating carbs some time beforehand. Wanted to retest, but got caught up making dinner, then doing dishes, feeding and playing with the dog, etc…

Also, I think ketosis and ketones are probably way more complex than we realize. I take my ketones 1-2 times a day. There’s no way to analyze what’s really happening. Until they get the continuous ketone monitors here in the US, we won’t know what’s going on. And even then, two people eating the same two foods will likely have completely different results.

I try to avoid talking about cortisol, because it’s pulsatile. I can’t even get good readings with fasting insulin (anywhere between 3.8 and 33), so I can’t add another pulsatile metric, and one I understand even less than insulin, to my thoughts.


(FRANK) #12

Bob,

CGM is now available w/o a prescription in US. Google Dexcom “Stelo”. I recently purchased one that was good for 30 days (2 sensors) for around $100. It was an interesting experiment.


(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #13

Tea has plenty of caffeine, especially if you steep it properly. So we should be talking as well about tea, Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, Red Bull, Monster, Gatorade (certain versions), Barq’s Root Beer, Pibb Xtra, Dr. Pepper, RC Cola, Zevia, Cheerwine, Mello Yello, Mountain Dew, to name a few, and not just coffee. Strange that no one ever mentions them, however.


(FRANK) #14

Paul,

I’m only inquiring on Coffee because I don’t drink ay of those other items.


#15

Cola and energy drinks are special, they make me more awake! Coffee and tea never had any effect like that but there is another big difference: I make my coffee and tea so I have great control over the caffeine content. Well only because my taste allow a wide range of strength but still :slight_smile: Okay, I could mix anything with more water but it’s still not the way normal people drink ready made drinks (except some optional ice cubes).
I never drink cola or energy drinks though. Well sometimes I feel wild and nostalgic but cola happened once in the last 1.5 decades (I put it into a lot of carbonated water to be able to drink it and it was before carnivore…) and hardly will happen again (and I used to like the taste). Thinking about the ketoers I ever met online, coffee and tea are way more important, the other mentioned things aren’t. Of course it’s not true for everyone. If one drinks them galore, of course it brings much caffeine.

And some of us drink it in way bigger amounts than coffee… I may drink many coffees a day but they are small (and super weak). Well not small for a coffee, maybe 50ml? While 500ml tea disappears in no time without any effort. Tea is nice warm hydration to me, I try to appreciate it more but I often prefer it over water even when weak (masala chai is great even that way, those spices are strong!).