CKD carb re-feed 36hr

#1

I have some questions regarding carb loading for muscle building.

I have been on keto diet near 8 weeks I’m 165lbs I would like to add weight build muscle as I feel I’m too skinny. My blood sugar avg 4.8 mmol and ketone level mornings 0.8mmol and dinner time 1.6mmol. Not sure if I’m fat adapted yet. Strict keto diet 20g carb 100g protein 200+ fat.

  1. Has anyone done it or doing it at the minute?

  2. I will be eating 400g carbs spread over 36hrs will this fill glycogen in muscles to cover upto two hard weightlifting sessions and not spill over to fat storage?

  3. I will keep fat intake moderate for the 36hrs but what happens to the fat I eat with my carbs will my body continue to use it for energy or store it?

  4. Any advice on letting back into ketosis after 36hr refeed? I will be trainning fasted following morning after refeed and plan to deplete glycogen with hiit and prob do intermittent fasting with bpc for couple days.

  5. Any advice would be apriciated…

(Crow T. Robot) #2

If you plan to eat that much carbohydrate, then you definitely want to keep your fat low or it will be stored.

That said, I don’t believe there has been any proof to indicate the need for carbohydrate for muscle building. You might feel better during the workout, but your recovery should be better without carbs. There are plenty of keto muscle builders who don’t carb cycle or carb refeed and do just fine. Your call, though.

#3

Why would the body store fat if the muscle and liver glycogen are not yet full? I will be very active for most of the 36hrs also.

I know ppl weight train without carbs Im only doing this as an experiment to see how my body reacts if it’s not worth it I will stay full time keto. Im only doing keto for mental focus and energy not weight loss. I look very skinny, ppl keep asking am I ill… I’ve been eating 3000kcal for last 3 days with no weight gain.

(Crow T. Robot) #4

Because the carbohydrates will raise your insulin and prevent lipolysis. The body will preferentially burn glucose for fuel, so some of those carbs will be converted to glycogen and stored in the liver and muscle, but you will be burning mostly glucose instead of fat during that period.

That said, you might not have a problem with a little bit of stored fat because you tend to be lean, so it might not be a big deal.

(Richard Morris) #5

My whey experiment showed that muscles replete glycogen whenever there is insulin to draw the glucose transporters to their cell surface.

You probably don’t really need to binge on 400g of glucose to fill the tanks.

And the points above about this setting the metabolic frame for locking someone who is insulin resistant into dependence on glucose for energy … is accurate.

For my metabolism this would dig me a giant hole and plunk me down into it that would take 4-5 days to climb out of. But YMMV

(John) #6

I will be eating 400g carbs spread over 36hrs will this fill glycogen in muscles to cover upto two hard weightlifting sessions and not spill over to fat storage?

Your body is constantly making glycogen for your muscles, eating a whole bunch won’t pack them full of more or anything, once they are full they won’t let any more in. Unless you just finished some very tough workouts your body doesn’t need an additional 400g so the rest will be used or stored as fat.

I will keep fat intake moderate for the 36hrs but what happens to the fat I eat with my carbs will my body continue to use it for energy or store it?

Your body will prioritize burning the carbs, any excess fat or carbs will be stored as fat.

Any advice on letting back into ketosis after 36hr refeed? I will be trainning fasted following morning after refeed and plan to deplete glycogen with hiit and prob do intermittent fasting with bpc for couple days.
Any advice would be apriciated…

Stop eating carbs and you will be back into ketosis. If you are not yet fat adapted this will definitely delay the process and if you do it often enough it won’t likely happen at all.

(Sascha Heid) #7

Carb Backloading was my first foray into a “partially” ketogenic diet.
I can not deny that it worked tremendously regarding muscle gain.
However i was also very motivated to work out, i never lifted weights with that kind of motivation before.
The whole story about insulin and how to manipulate where the sugar goes was new and very fascinating.

You seem to be lean already, so why not experiement? I envy you, it’s exciting!

There are basically 3 popular protocols:
Kiefer’s Carb-Backloading: Carb-Refeed the evening after a weight-lifting workout. No workout, no refeed.
Kiefer’s Carb Nite: Carb Refeed on one long evening once a week. (focus on “fat-loss”)
Kiefer is very liberall in your choice of carbs. Especially if you are lean already you can basically eat whatever you want.
Lyle McDonalds: He has different versions, in UD2 for example it is a refeed for a whole weekend but he is much more restricting in everything else. During the week ultra low carb and ultra low fat (PSMF) and a perfect refeed would be ultra low fat as well. I tried this for a few months and found it VERY difficult. My all time lowest weight is still from this time however.

Supposedly there is a peroid of time during a refeed where fat is not stored. I think Lyle said that your ketogenic state will continue for a couple of hours during which your body will continue to burn fat. So basically a timing issue.

If i had no fat to lose i would go for Carb Backloading as long as i feel good.

Eat a pizza for me, im currently waterfasting :slight_smile:

(Dany Bolduc) #8

This sounds a lot like the ‘Anabolic Diet’ as proposed by Dr Mauro Di Pasquale (I believe this was late ‘70s early 80’, but don’t quote me on that)

My first foray into Keto was on this Analobic Diet. My n = 1 lasted 4 months.
I was weight training 5-7 days a weeks for a total of 7-10 hours.
My results: Didn’t loose weight, didn’t gain mass or strength (any more than on normal SAD diet for a comparable amount of time (didn’t know much about Keto at the time))

Do not recommend carbs back-loading and would never do it again.
(‘Maybe’ for a world class level athlete this could have more benefits, but the level of training I was on (which I consider fairly high), it did not)

TLDR

Now that I have experienced true Ketogenic state and more importantly Fat-Adaptation, I can say that the Anabolic Diet (and its cyclical carbs back-loading) definitely prevented me from ever making it to Fat-Adaptation.
Yes, I was getting into Ketosis, usually 36-48 hours following a refeed, but as quickly as 24 hours and as slowly as 72. Mostly depended on whether or not I fasted and/or trained after the refeed.
But I was constantly in and out of ketosis, never making it to fat-adaptation which either 1) requires sustained Ketosis for 4-8 weeks or 2) longer than 4 months of in and out of ketosis (if ever)

Couple of effects for me (again I can only realise this NOW that I have been Fat-Adapted for some time)

  1.  I was rarely if ever benefitting from the appetite suppressive nature of a Keto diet

  2.  My trainings are much easier being fat-adapted than they were with carbs refeed. The main difference being Lactic Acid (which 'if' I'm not mistaken is a by-product of your glycogen stores being rapidly expended) Being Fat-Adapted, even when training a muscle to rupture, I don't have that feeling my 'quasi paralysis' (that 'pump') in that muscle that occurred while training on Carbs.

  3.  I've always been prone to a lot of inflammation pain. No longer the case now that I am Fat-Adapted.

  4.  Recuperation is at least twice as fast without carbs (may be related to lactic acid build up and/or inflammation, or something else I don't know)
(Anti-Gravity Gains) #9

I got down to 167 lbs as a 5 foot 9 inch tall (short) dude. Folks at my gym said I looked too skinny. People that work out commonly are on standard carbage diet. I will say this: you deliver more “pump” a.k.a. water to the muscles on a diet with more carbs. But I don’t believe it means you build more muscle mass. It just appears that way. (I might be wrong). Carbs might help deliver more strength for heavy workout/weight training sessions (at least in my experience) so, in a way, you might be able to make more muscle mass gains as a result. I have not used a regimented TKD/carbup for weight training yet as I don’t care too much about gaining much more muscle mass. If I do, however, I will more than likely use a TKD approach as you mentioned with a weight training session, then hop back on strict keto and do a HIIT session the following morning. Bodybuilders are really good at this - they call it carb cycling. Take the “you look too skinny” type comments from meatheads and the population in general with a grain of salt (and you won’t appear puffy like all those on S.W.D. that take in extra salt!).

(Anti-Gravity Gains) #10

@Dany that was a very good summary of your experience. I’ve also been prone to inflammation pain as both a weight lifter and an ultra distance runner. A strict keto diet is far more beneficial to me than one incorporating carbups every week or two. Being keto adapted has been the best thing for my joint pain/inflammation issues.

#11

Thanks guys for the replies, Sunday will be end of my 8th week on keto diet I am debating wether to put carb refeed on hold for another week to see if I can fully fat adapt… my moods are better at the minute, tho I do crave carbs the odd time. I’m also not bursting with energy as some ppl claim when they are adapted how long did it take for you guys to fully adapt?

(Dany Bolduc) #12

The way I realized I was Fat-Adapted is when I found I had incredible endurance in my legs going up flights of stairs … whereas days prior, I would get a feeling of “empty/no strength” after 3 or 4 stories.

That was right about 7 weeks for me.