Cholesterol/Statins (again!)

#21

I agree with you all. But this is my husband who will have to make the final decision. I will be even better prepared next time and have studies etc to hand

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #22

There are studies showing that total and LDL cholesterol numbers are very poor indicators of cardiovascular risk. The analyses indicate that the only meaningful correlation is triglycerides over HDL, which we have discussed.

But, at best, this correlation is only a marker for cardiovascular risk. The lipid numbers do not cause cardiovascular disease, any more than putting your thermometer in boiling water gives you a fever. It is the root cause that must be addressed. Diet, being a big part of the problem, must therefore be a big part of the solution.

I don’t know how easy the NHS makes it to change practices or to change doctors within a practice, but it might be worth a try. But before you complain to any authority, take a look at what the NICE are advising these days. Your husband’s current doctor may simply be following the guideline, and she can’t possibly be criticised for that. Not in official terms, in any case (though we can, and do!).

The standard of care is very difficult to fight. The work-around for this is to either “forget” to fill the prescription or to “forget” to take the pills. In the U.S., “patient refused” is acceptable as a reason not to prescribe, but the doctor has to make sure this gets into the record, in order to avoid legal liability.

#23

Paul - I can’t see there would be any point in changing doctor. Within a practice is easy as you can just ask for whoever you want, although it might be weeks before you get to see a specific doctor. But they’re all going to be of the same opinion I would imagine.

My husband is well aware that it’s down to him to make the decision as to what to do next and quite adamant he’s not going back on any type of statins so we’ll see. His blood pressure is slightly high but he’s exercising more and about to change his diet a bit. He’s actually very healthy (I think) and not on any other medications and doesn’t drink so fingers crossed :crossed_fingers:

#24

Well my doctor held a Rosuvastatin pill in his hand, saying " look,this pill is keeping you alive !"

I asked him “why are you trying to scare me to death,then?”

(B Creighton) #25

One of the reasons I am here is because my blood pressure was borderline hypertensive, and I didn’t want to go on blood pressure medicines or statins. Statins have lots of side effects, and if you want I can show you studies showing essentially no improvement in life expectancy. In a person with low oxLDL I believe they will actually shorten one’s life span. This is largely because along with lowering cholesterol production, they lower CoQ10 production because it is produced on the same chemical pathway. CoQ10 and its metabolite, Ubiquinol, are used by the body to protect your LDL from becoming oxidized. So, in the long run I do not believe statins help prevent atherosclerosis, because any less risk of having less cholesterol to become oxidized is offset by less antioxidant to protect it from oxidation.
Far more important IMO is to eat in a fashion to prevent the oxidative stress. This largely means not eating sugar and processed carbs because these lead to glycation of the LDL protein, which leads to much easier oxidation of the LDL particles. Processed seed oils can also add to this oxidative stress because they are already oxidized and are easily oxidized more in the cooking process. Then their oxidized triglycerides are going to get packed into your LDL where they can cause a chain reaction of more oxidation unless quenched by an antioxidant.

Since you say he is happy to eat as you do, the solution is simple. Do the grocery shopping and the cooking in the keto/low carb way, and he should be much better off than the general public. BTW last time I donated blood my blood pressure was 98/72. I did a full blood panel back in December, and my relatively higher saturated fat diet didn’t raise my “cholesterol.” In fact it was low - my triglycerides were 198, but I was apparently burning fat with a ketone level of 1.

#26

Thanks for the reply

His blood pressure was only high once before and he was given medication for it. I was so cross that was the first option. We googled, took no medication and got it back to normal. At the moment it’s about 130/75. We do both take coQ10

I do the shopping and cook everything anyway as he doesn’t cook. The only thing that will remain is some chia rye bread which will be limited.

:crossed_fingers:

#27

Blood pressure is another thing the medical profession has a bee in it’s bonnet about too! Not too many years ago the systolic used to be acceptable if it was 100 + your age, & as long as the diastolic was under 100 that would be considered fine! Blood pressure medication obviously earns big pharma an awful lot of money like statins, so why not bring in new ideas that blood pressure should be much lower & get everyone medicated! And ignore how many old people have falls because their blood pressure is artificially low & they get dizzy when they get up from sitting!

#28

Old people fall? I´m 61. :slight_smile:

Last October, I fell just like that,without warning when I got up after dinner and walked fast outside,in cool weather.

I have no idea how it happened but I woke up in a pool of blood coming from my nose… or so I thought at first, for some miraculous reason it was not my nose but a cut right under my nose. A branch or a stone must have done it.

Forehead and knuckles bruised,too.

It was Friday night so all healthcare facilities were closed for the weekend (we have a new right wing “economy government that does all these great savings”) so I kept on bleeding for about five hours (blood thinners).

Now I have a nice little scar under my nose. Neck was stiff and painful for a month. Could have been much worse, eye, nose,teeth or life.

No more BP pills for me.

#29

That’s scary! I was speaking from experience of my father in law, at 87 who had a fall, he went downhill after his fall…glad you’re off your tablets!

#30

Scary :worried:

(Kirk Wolak) #31

Yeah,
I am one of those people who need the OLD Definitions. LOL
I have been normally 130 - 140. Since turning 57, I’ve been in the 150 range.

Now, there are times when it gets crazy high. (190/120). And anything above 160s I take 2 medicines to bring it down. But I will NOT take the meds daily… Because they can cause extreme lows. It’s like they BARELY work and then the OVER work. They discourage me from WALKING in the sun, which can lower my BP by 30 points.

But I will watch my Diastolic… I don’t think it normally goes above 100…
And I don’t want to be taking daily meds. (TBH, I’d rather die earlier and live more naturally).

(Kirk Wolak) #32

Keep in mind, at his age. He should have a CAC (Calcium Score).
My wife has INSANELY High LDL (300+).
Over 60, she has a ZERO Calcium score.
Mediterranean born and still eats close to that.

My brother suffered muscle pain, bruising, weakness on his statin. I MADE him read the insert, he asked his doctor. He said “Statins don’t have THOSE side effects”… LOL, my brother made him READ THE INSERT. He highlighted it.

The doctor said “Oh, those are so rare, they only mention them to be safe!”
LOL… Medicine.

(Alec) #33

Oi, oi, my LDL is 450 and I do not consider that “INSANELY High”. For me, it is normal.

What is insanity is the current medical dogma that wants to reduce LDL to lower and lower and lower levels, despite there being no evidence that this helps reduce mortality in any way at all. The DATA tells us that the higher your LDL, the lower your All Cause Mortality.

#34

Couple of thoughts. If he is going keto, it will be easier for him to get through the induction phase without any carby cheats. Once he is fully fat adapted he may be ok with having limited bread. At that point he will have the metabolic flexibility to eat either. I have found I can have a carby meal and go right back to low carb. I could not do that when I started. I was pretty careful my first six months.

If you want to respond to someone directly, either reply to their post specifically or use the @ button. Such as @Amanda1. You use the @ button and then without a space you start type a name and suggestions will show up

I noticed you mentioned he does exercise, this is really helpful for a bunch of reasons although it is not a substitute for a healthy WOE

#35

@Saphire

#36

Replied a bit quick there. @Saphire thanks :+1:

Actually I’ve made some Keto seed crackers which he is happy with so hopefully all well.

I know the exercise isn’t a substitute. I’m definitely of the camp that it’s not a weight loss solution. He’s not overweight and is healthy and looks 10 years younger!!I’m making him do more exercise more for his mental health and blood pressure than anything else. He’s 78 and on no meds. Not many of them around :blush:

(Bob M) #37

That’s up there. One of the highest ones I’ve seen.I think Dr. Jen Unwin (wife of David Unwin, who started using keto in his practice in the UK a while ago) had a higher LDL, something like 700?. I read her book too:

https://a.co/d/bp9iTgQ

She had either a CAC scan or a CCTA scan done, very low score.

She’s probably a LMHR, as I don’t think she has FH.

I do think the emphasis on one marker is wrong. “Doc, I’ve lost 60,70,80,90, or 100 pounds, got off 5 medications, lowered my HbA1c, and HS-CRP…” “But your LDL went up! You’re in real trouble!”

(Kirk Wolak) #38

Sorry, that was the Doctors “attitude” coming through. LOL. It is normal for her.

(Alec) #39

I have learnt through long and hard experience that if there is any doubt (and in metabolic and chronic conditions, there is always doubt), the doctor is wrong. Time and time again, what doctors have told me has turned out to be utter rubbish.

If I have a broken arm, and the doctor has an x-ray to prove it, there is little doubt… I will believe him. Anything more subtle, my standard of care is to do the reverse of what the doctor tells me to do. Usually works extremely well.

#40

I barely ever saw a doctor but they were wrong most of the time…
I am still thankful to their existence (doctors in general), my wrist surgery went very well :slight_smile: They are good at those things, problems with bones are pretty straightforward.

Yes, they are good with broken arms - except they wanted to use a cast on me. No thanks, it’s barbaric.
BUT if it’s just a potential fracture… And the doctor says it’s broken and the man doing the x-ray (no idea what that is called) says it’s NOT… Well, I believed the latter. The doc wanted to put my whole right (very dominant, I mean I barely can do anything with my left including carrying weight) arm up to my elbow into a cast. I run away. I always run away when casts are mentioned, it’s my thing. (I wouldn’t if I would break my leg badly, that’s very different! It was always just my hand/wrist this far.) My PINKY was… IDK if fractured or not but not broken, it healed by itself just fine.

So, even with mostly clear things like breaks and fractures, they not necessarily are right.
But when it’s something more individual, complex and the experts can’t agree about it? I would trust my own feelings much more.

From this forum I have learned about LDL but as I never ever got any number about it, I just eat and behave in a way my body feels good (but even with numbers, I would do the same as that is what important, I just would be more careful if I got some bad numbers regarding something. like some clearly too low micronutrient, I would focus on food items more rich in it).