Cholesterol Debate

(Geoffrey) #1

Cholesterol debate with cardiologist Dr. Alo and Dr. Paul Saladino.
Very long video but interesting.

Opinions?

(Joey) #2

Well, since you askedā€¦

Thanks for the link. I watched about half - getting well beyond the commercial advertisement embedded in the video telling me to buy Salodinoā€™s supplements :roll_eyes: He nearly lost me at that point.

Ironically, I actually agree with Salodinoā€™s points (not surprising, as a member of this keto forum community) and so am biased in his favor.

But I found his incessant interruptions and rude facial expressions in response to his guestā€™s comments to be so off-putting that I eventually gave up.

When you have folks with opposing views on your platform invited as ā€œguests,ā€ they are supposed to be treated with extra respect and care. Thatā€™s how you show that youā€™re a class act. Apparently, Salodino is not.

At least as long as I watched, Dr. Alo retained his dignity and composure even as he was treated rudely based on his views that run counter to his hostā€™s (and my own).

Salodino claims to be genuinely interested in hearing othersā€™ points of view. That claim rang hollow in my ears.

(Geoffrey) #3

I completely agree and only getting half way through it still gave you the gist of the whole thing. I find Paul to be a bit pushy and maybe a bit arrogant.
While a lot of the medical jargon starts to get somewhat jumbled up in my brain I found it interesting in how different sides see the same issues. I got the impression that it all boils down to which study you choose to believe.
For me, and yes I am also biased, the studies that show support for high LDLā€™s not being a contributing factor in heart health make more sense to me. So much so that Iā€™m willing to actually bet my life on it.

(Joey) #4

Same, same. :+1:

My LDL had been upper-normal pre-keto. Not much of a concern.

But since cutting out carbs 4+ years ago, my LDL promptly skyrocketed off the charts - despite the fact that HDL now sits over 100 with Trigs barely reaching 50. (Being somewhat lean to start, without the carbs I lost 4" of waistline and 25lbs of gravity, along with most of the aches/pains of ā€œagingā€ Iā€™d assumed were then my new normal.)

Importantly, along with newly pain-free joints, my bloodwork suggests minimal signs of any inflammation. Itā€™s all good.

So like you, Iā€™m betting that those LDL figures are simply not relevant to oneā€™s health given our metabolic context - and, just like our trusted family internist, I shall continue to ignore them.

In short: I really want Salodino to be right. I just donā€™t plan on listening to him again having suffered enough. :wink:

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #5

:rofl:

(KM) #6

Aside: I received the AARP newsletter this month - no idea why, I have never requested it. Apparently, reaching millions of older people a month with their authoritative advice, the AARP is engaged in killing off seniors as efficiently as possible. An interview with The Digestive Tract (page 60) has informed me that :

  1. As a senior, I have to watch my cholesterol especially carefully,

  2. That I need plenty of hearthealthywholegrains, fruits and exercise,

  3. I must avoid arterycloggingsaturatedfat,

  4. I should drink at least 6 cups of coffee and 2 glasses of wine a day for my gallbladderā€™s sake,

  5. Avoid salt and animal protein,

  6. Avoid cured meats,

  7. Eat all the gluten I want unless Iā€™ve been diagnosed with celiac disease,

  8. Once again eat a ā– ā– ā– ā–  ton of plants.

Iā€™m not sure Iā€™ve ever encountered such an eyewatering fart of bad advice in one article before. Does anyone have a ribeye they could spare? Not sure if Iā€™d eat it or put it on my black eye.

(Joey) #7

@kib1 Ha! :laughing: ā€¦youā€™ve got me roaring here!

We get that same AARP newsrag on a regular unsolicited basis.

The only thing I can see using it for (besides practicing my pitch directly into the recycle bin) is to adopt a puppy to pee on it. :dog:

(jr bob dobbs) #8

Lean mass hyper responder.

Me too.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #9

Will this do? :cut_of_meat:

Hereā€™s another one, just in case: :cut_of_meat:

And some bacon to take the taste out of your mouth: :bacon::bacon::bacon::bacon:

#10

Reading the AARP points, oh the usual, the usualā€¦ Thenā€¦

What. Itā€™s not just itā€™s new to me but it is, like, the worst idea for manyā€¦ I donā€™t see even a very misguided point!

WHAT!!!
Vegans are way too influential thereā€¦
Stupid vegans who donā€™t know we NEED sodium, even.

I am against all points for myself, not like I am a senior but they hardly will change when I become one! I feel I am close to my final form!
I am only fine with eating all the gluten I want. (I drink all the booze I want too. And eat all the fruits as well. They are all minuscule amounts though :wink: And I donā€™t NEED any.)

Sometimes I read official dietary advice. And I always thought I am a hedonist, not a masochistā€¦ I am too curious for my own good and the advice changes super slowly so I just should forget about these things for some decades. Maybe it will be different then. Hopefully better but even my huge optimism is cautious there. These things hadnā€™t improved in the last several decades as far as I can tell.

And I wrote this in the carni thread already but I got remindedā€¦ There was a video about how to make good tasting vegs (but vegs arenā€™t really the point), like the ones in restaurants, not what we make at home. There were some tips, two of them were: Use salt and fat.
:flushed::scream:
I thought itā€™s, like, glaringly obviousā€¦ And yes, some are afraid of fat (super useful though, surface wise as well, these videos always tell) but salt too? Okay, overdoing salt like crazy isnā€™t a good idea (could happen eating certain processed stuff galore, one shouldnā€™t do that for more reasons than salt though) but who arrived to the thought that we must completely skip itā€¦? Or at least skip it in any food we ourselves make? I know not everyone needs any added sodium but a little to taste salt being the enemy, itā€™s just so crazy! Itā€™s even very much known that we need it. Radio talks about it in summer when people may drink a ton of water!
And some people are actually upset when they eat some tasty food and they learn later that it had a TINY salt and fat! Essential, good-for-taste items becoming the enemy, I never will understand that.

Itā€™s already so weird to me that people can get so easily or so very much influenced by dietary adviceā€¦ To some extent, sure, itā€™s understandable, probably all of us get influenced at least when we are young and ignorant but it seems itā€™s much worse in most of your countries. While look at mine, the normal person eats high-fat, high saturated fat, lots of red meat (if they can, donā€™t think itā€™s too expensive, people are weird here too) despite the woes of the officials who are even upset few people have vegetarian Christmas dinners :smiley: I donā€™t know why that is surprising, really.
We eat carbs and sugar galore too and overeating is a common thing, overprocessed things galore and all the usual modern eating problems, I donā€™t say we eat right at all just that we donā€™t seem to follow the dietary advice much when it comes between us and our beloved, tasty food.
Actually, I guess itā€™s similar elsewhere but we have some advantages like pork being the number one non-fowl meat by far (and we never were into lean pigs, Iā€™ve read US had thatā€¦?), breakfast cereals coming pretty late (and they are pitiful compared to pork and eggs and one needs their joys. how anyone can look at them and see food, I never could comprehend)ā€¦
We got converted from lard to sunflower oil quickly though :frowning: Itā€™s THE cooking oil since several decades. Now we have coconut oil but most people are way too price sensitive (I mean when ONLY price matters for them in some cases), even the ones being way richer than me. Not like I need coconut oil, I just buy the cheapest fatty pork and render my tiny lard from it, I donā€™t even need much. Itā€™s easy to cook with almost no added fat on my woe.
I did use coconut oil on vegetarian keto.

I got carried away but I just canā€™t get over these things. And I as a health-conscious hedonist feel so sorry for many people who do things just wrong on all levels. Some even spend a ton of money on their bad dietā€¦
And I am mad at money hungry jerks who mess with peopleā€™s health too. But I donā€™t like the well-meaning arrogant gurus either. Who do the same due to having very wrong ideas based on whatever, maybe their snowflake individual experiences. Many seem to totally ignore other peopleā€™s experiences and even that we just donā€™t respond to the same diet the same way as we are too different. Itā€™s not hard to see thoughā€¦

But humans are good at having an idea, even completely unproved, even where many experiences say the opposite - and forcing it on others. I have read a lot about medical history, oh my. Hurting people out of ignorance and arrogance (bad combo) or baseless assumptions. It seems some just thought, oh itā€™s a nice hypothesis, letā€™s try it on people. And they got parts out of peope (like part of the guts, disgusting, ew) because itā€™s surely just do bad things and nothing useful. Or poured hot oil into open wounds of soldiers.
I just donā€™t know what they were thinking and how no one noticed they were insaneā€¦ But the arrogance! I wouldnā€™t cut up people on a hunch. But I wouldnā€™t do a ton of things people regularly do, both bad and goodā€¦

(KM) #11

I just found the whole thing especially galling because my mom is 93. Sheā€™s becoming somewhat childlike, but she looks for simple advice from ā€œtrusted sourcesā€ - in her mind a glossy magazine especially for old people distributed nationwide (and mailed especially to her, which makes her feel personally singled out for this great advice) would be a very trusted source - so she can stay conversant and reassured about her health practices. Itā€™s one thing to target people who are being willfully ignorant or lazy (oh, keto gummies, perfect!), but another entirely to prey on those who are doing their best.

Itā€™s maybe even worse that this article isnā€™t selling anything outright. Itā€™s easy to spot someone pressing snake oil at you and close your wallet, a lot harder to spot ā€œinnocentā€ (but terrible) advice thatā€™s a combination of ā€œeverybody knowsā€ and ā€œbut hereā€™s something new, tooā€, and close your mind to the garbage. Yeah, hereā€™s something new alright ā€¦ gallons of coffee and wine will cure your gallbladder. Sigh.

(Robin) #12

ā€œ Itā€™s one thing to target people who are being willfully ignorant
or lazyā€¦ā€

I donā€™t think people are willfully ignorant. We donā€™t know what we donā€˜t know. I was ignorant for most of my life. But statements like this only serve to turn off the very people who need the answers.
Besides, even here on the forum, we have polar opposite answers sometimes.
Just my opinion, but admittedly a strong one.

(KM) #13

My point was, willful. Intentionally sticking oneā€™s head in the sand because an answer sounds magically easy, rather than looking any further. Like the new magic gummies that promise you can eat a handful of candy and somehow be in ketosis and lose tons of weight without doing anything else.

I donā€™t see the participants of this forum as willfully ignorant at all, that was a comment about people ā€˜out thereā€™ who want to be lied to, vs. people who really believe theyā€™re being told the truth.

I have no beef with someone whoā€™s experimenting, asking questions, trying to get answers, or who has an experience or piece of information different from mine. Thatā€™s the whole point of this forum, I think!

#14

Sourely some are like that, there are all kinds of peopleā€¦ But most are probably just simply ignorant like you and I were. (Not like I know most things now but enough for me to stay healthy as far as my diet goes I believe. And I wonā€™t stop learning about things.)

I see many people apparently donā€™t CARE about their health. Itā€™s crazy. Well, they may pop a pill for it but doing something seriousā€¦?
Itā€™s not the level where one use doublethink to persuade themselves their bad diet is great but already a worrying one.

There are various levels. Health always was important to me but I was healthy enough and just didnā€™t think about it. Until I did.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #15

I take your point, that criticising people wins no friends, but I think @kib1 was talking more about the kind of ignorance exemplified by Upton Sinclairā€™s insight: ā€œIt is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.ā€

#16

I love reading about different experiences!
I have problems with the attitude where one denies/ignore all experiences not like theirs. It must be the only way for everyone, no matter how many people say not for them. Or when itā€™s pre experience and a guru says this precise way of diet is what everyone should do as it is the only right way for everyone. (And possibly a few years later they change their mind.)

I have read so many different stories that I canā€™t often stay statements that this should be done or this will happen. Only when itā€™s very obvious due to extremely low macros or something like that so even personal differences canā€™t matter. 60g protein may be great for someone. 30g is too low for everyone (except maybe a super tiny person. not a simply short one). Even the petite woman on this forum with some problem that made her ideal protein intake very low needed more than that (I remember 40-60g).

Yeah. Or when it feels so bad to face we are lazy to change, letā€™s think we donā€™t even need it! And everyone who thinks we do is stupid and will get sick without all the carbs anyway.
I personally never met such people but read about them.

#17

Actually, this topic is very close to me
Since Iā€™m a vegetarian, my friends often try to change my mind about nutrition. But I never give in to that pressure. I still believe that I donā€™t need cholesterol from food.

(Robin) #18

True. Point taken.

#19

You are right, your body makes all the cholesterol it needs. Itā€™s not an essential nutrient.

I was a pretty stubborn vegetarian myself and liked my woe :slight_smile: Some of my family members couldnā€™t wrap their head around it but that wasnā€™t my problem :wink: There is nothing in meat you couldnā€™t get from elsewhere.
It makes keto somewhat harder though especially if you need to go very low-carb. My 40g net carbs vegetarian keto wasnā€™t bad, I just missed my vegs, itā€™s good one can change a lot and they werenā€™t so important long term. But my carnivore-ish is zillion times better, easier, simpler. But itā€™s just me. My own SO has a very different diet from me too and it works for him, it seems healthy for him so I have no problem with it. (Except when it tempts me but itā€™s my weakness, not his or his dietā€™s problem ;))

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #20

True. As long as we are properly nourished, the amount of cholesterol in our food is irrelevant, because the body makes what it needs. For that, we need plenty of saturated and mono-unsaturated fats in our diet. The fear of arterycloggingsaturatedfat is one of the great myths that has been perpetrated on the public.

I believe that it is the root cause of our epidemics of obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and all the other degenerative chronic diseases that have plagued us since the introduction of the dietary guidelines.