Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine

(Ethan) #33

Hospitalization is still clearly much higher rate—even if the fatality rate is lower than we think

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #34

The number of dead people depends not only on the mortality rate, but on the speed of the infection and the base immunity. And all numbers of mortality are mostly taken from countries where patients were hospitalized. It will go up fast if we run out of beds and have to turn people away. You can’t reduce scientific facts to 160 characters.

Of the sources you cite, I discussed the french study in detail earlier. One is in vitro, which says nothing. There are plenty of drugs that work in vitro but not in a human trial. Another of your sources says “There is no current evidence from RCTs to recommend any specific anti-COVID-19 treatment for patients with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 infection.” Yep.

Anyway, guess it’s a moot point because we’ll find out in a month or two. From what we hear in Europe, not even NY is locked down. We can only pray that you are right and Hydroxychloroquine works, because we’re certainly screwed if it doesn’t.

A lot of the discussion reminds me of the demonization of cholesterol and saturated fats in the 60s. We’re making exactly the same mistakes again: Someone presents a plausible fact based supported only by a deeply flawed study, and we suddenly have a stampede following. Ignoring all the other options, before we know for sure that the direction is correct. That’s not how science works.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #35

@Fruno Many doctors, including most doctors in NYC are prescribing hydroxychloroquine because it works, not because they want to appear to be doing something useful. They’ve seen their patients respond well. Several countries have already publicly announced they are using it and recommending it. The hypothesis is being tested repeatedly and everywhere. So far no one has demonstrated it doesn’t work for a huge majority of patients. If you remain unconvinced, and want to await the RCT, New York State should have some preliminary results to announce soon. And we’re not necessarily screwed if chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine don’t work, other strategies are being examined as well.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #36

So far the death rates still rise quickly. Also we don’t know what kind of side effects survivors have, the one who had to go to ICUs. From SARS-1, a lot of the survivors ended up with chronic fatigue and the like. And even if hydroxychloroquine works, it’s clearly no mircacle drug like antibiotics where you may feel a lot better after a day. Patients will still need to be in ICU for a week, because in week 2 the disease morphes to an autoimmune disease and we do not have a drug for that yet. If we have a wave of infections, there won’t be enough ICU beds available. Somehow you seem to ignore these arguments. So it’s a good idea to avoid infection independent from death rates and drugs, independent from the availability of drugs. What will you do if half a million people are infected and you have 20k hospital beds?

But that’s only one side. A good scientist is one who will not choose a “yes” or “no”, but one who is aware that we are dealing with probabilities here. No one in the world really knows how well it works, not even doctors who use it. Let’s use some made up numbers. Say you think that hydroxychloroquine probably works, you’re 90% sure that it is efficient. If it doesn’t work, we’re looking at 100.000 deaths or more. Would you take that chance? Would you decide against a lockdown because we have a drug, and risk that 100.000 deaths are on your conscience?

End of discussion for me, we’re running in circles. You’re convinced that hydroxychloroquine works, I say there’s a high risk that it doesn’t, I don’t think we will convince each other.

(Doug) #37

I sure hope it does work for enough to make a real difference. We’ve got a compound interest type deal here, and if these drugs can whack off even a moderate amount along the way, the end result will be much different.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38


Posted this link here as well:

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #39

https://twitter.com/UnitedRda/status/1244299325963829248
“Unfortunately, we lost Dr.utpal barman a young anaesthesiologist died of sudden cardiac arrest this afternoon. He had just taken 2 doses of hydroxyl chloroquine.”

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2020/03/from-yeasts-to-chloroquine.html
“You can see that the drug chloroquine a) might work and b) might be very toxic in overdose.”

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2020/03/look-after-your-lysosomes.html
“Sadly the narrow line between the degree of raising lysosomal pH to blunt viral replication and that which might release sufficient cysteine to strip the FeS clusters out from complex I [where it becomes toxic] can be crossed quite easily, so it appears.”

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #40
(Elmo) #41

We’ll see how good the drugs are that are currently being tested. All along there has been a good reason for skepticism here.

(Elmo) #42

By no means is all the evidence in, but caution continues to be warranted (to say the least). 4 countries have recently found a relative lack of positives versus the negatives.

US: In the study of 368 patients, 97 patients who took hydroxychloroquine had a 27.8% death rate. The 113 patients who took hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin had a 22.1% death rate. The 158 patients who did not take the drug had an 11.4% death rate. The study is not yet peer-reviewed, and was done at United States Veterans Health Administration medical centers.

France: Among about 90 people who had taken hydroxychloroquine "eight patients who took the drug developed abnormal heart rhythms and had to stop taking it.

Abnormal heart rhythms are a known side effect of hydroxychloroquine, which has been used for decades to treat patients with diseases such as malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Doctors in Sweden and Brazil have sounded warnings about chloroquine, a very similar drug, because of heart problems."

Brazil: “A small phase II study in Brazil, in which 11 patients died of fatal arrhythmias or heart muscle damage, shows how risky high-dose treatment of COVID-19 patients with chloroquine can be, especially in combination with the antibiotic azithromycin or other drugs.”

Sweden: “According to the national paper Expressen, hospitals in the Västra Götaland region are no longer offering the antimalarial medication, with side effects reported to include cramps and the loss of peripheral vision.”

First notice about the US study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1

(Bunny) #43

Why not prevent it to begin with?

Chris Masterjohn finally gets it?

COVID-19: Getting Zinc and Copper Into the Nose, Mouth, and Throat

The particular bat this virus actually originated from lives (microbiome) on its skin, the reason bats can fight all the viruses and the lethal pathogens it carries is because it produces massive amounts of vitamin C and probably even Zinc, Copper and D (from sunlight) in it’s saliva. (Chris does not know that?)

This virus has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions (before humans) how it jumped to humans may have to do with that shoddily secured bio-weapons testing lab in Wuhan?

Female lab technician accidentally gets virus on her hands, brings it home and husband goes shopping?

#44

This is interesting. I’ve had the virus in my heart and noticed that taking anything which hooks on ACE-2 receptors would cause tachycardia.

Quercetin, ginger, etc… but I discovered that I can counter act these effects eventually by taking NAC mixed with water and B12 to raise melatonin. NAC and melatonin work together.

Letting the heart race for a bit and then taking NAC/methylcobalamin to balance it seems to make sense.

(Lazy, Dirty Keto 😝) #45

Sorry if this has been posted. Found this interesting.

(Bob M) #46

How does a nocturnal bat get sunlight?

(Bunny) #47

Very specifically this virus comes from the skin (microbiome) of Round Eared Fruit Bats (not the pointy eared ones); Fruit, Forage, Vegetation, Fauna = Vitamin C (in the bats saliva; highly concentrated amounts) + Sunlight Vitamin D (they do get some sunlight) and Zinc (highly concentrated amounts).

Just ordered an entire case of Zinc, Vitamin C & D throat lozenges (the correct kind without sugar). If you can get some with a little copper in them that would be good too.

I only take them when I go out in public.

They will be hard to get like Lysol soon. Or learn how to make them?

Bad Bunny, hoarding throat lozenges!

I imagine this particular type of corona virus is a transmutational defensive mechanism (i.e. a natural bioweapon; can wipe out an entire species) to keep predators from eating bats.

Hard to find any real (useful) information on bat bio-physiology on the internet.

Who ever said “…the meek shall inherit the earth…” wasn’t joking?

(Ethan) #48

Tons of carbs still often in sugar free. I use liquid d, zinc, and copper, and ester c

#49

Bats arbor viruses. It’s their defensive mechanism. :upside_down_face:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat-borne_virus)

(Doug) #50

BatBoyvirus

#51

Are you taking any B vitamins?

(Bunny) #52

Yes, B Vitamins from both Brewers Yeast and Nutritional Yeast NON-FORTIFIED.