Check under the hood please

(Robin) #1

Hi guys, just want to make sure I am on the right path.
Started June 22. I am using carb Manager right now, just to get a feel for what works. I stay between 12-15 g carb. My Fats are in 70% range, and proteins around 28(ish)%. I am charting with a calorie goal of 1000. I had it higher but I struggle to get over that amount. I feel good. Lost about 20 lb in the first 3 weeks, now it’s probably more like 2 pounds a week. I’m ok with that. I mostly eat meat, cheese, eggs, some fresh veggies for my carbs.I’m walking for exercising and drinking tons of water. I naturally do a 18/6 intermittent fast daily. Also, I have almost zero appetite. i just eat when I should. Only two real issues… severe foot cramps in the night. (They also occurred early on in the process, went away, and are now back.) And I have also noticed a strong ammonia smell, that someone on this forum said could be too much protein…?

So, I did some brushing up on my electrolyte/supplement needs from articles you guys have posted. I have upped my Magnesium from 250 to 350mg, and my potassium from 600 to 1200. Does this sound right?

(Central Florida Bob ) #2

FWIW, I think your overall approach is fine.

You might have to tweak your electrolytes and sometimes that’s a moving target. I’ve had mild foot cramps, but only on my right foot and only toes number three and four (counting from the big toe as one). That used to show up only while alternate day fasting, but has recently come back despite not fasting. Adding some more potassium helped get rid of the cramps.

Edit to add: the electrolytes changing are in the context of having been keto over five years.

(Robin) #3

Thanks, I’ll keep on trucking…

#4

I too started out with carb manager but switched over to chronometer. I ended up liking it better because it tracks a few essential vitamins and fiber intake. If, like the previous post eluded to, you are deficient somewhere, it might be able to pick it up and help.

(Robin) #5

Not heard of that one. Thanks!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

Be sure to stay adequately hydrated. That will also help with the cramping.

And you are right, the ammonia smell probably means that you are overloading your uric acid cycle with more ammonia than it can handle. The ammonia comes from deaminated amino acids, or in other words, excess protein. We recommend eating 1.0-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of your lean body mass per day. So if you weigh 100 kilos (220 lbs.) and you are 70% lean tissue, then you want to eat 70-105 grams (2.5-3.7 oz.) of protein a day, which is 10 to 15 oz. of meat.

In a healthy person, ammonia toxicity starts to appear when people eat 3.0 g/kg. That’s a lot of protein. If you are taking protein shakes, or anything like that, definitely cut them out. If you are really eating that much protein in the form of meat, cut your intake in half. If you are already eating in the recommended range, try cutting back somewhat and see what happens.

It may be that there is some other problem going on that you may have to consult your physician about, but cutting back on the protein is the first thing to try.

As far as your rate of fat loss is concerned, you are doing a great job, congratulations.

#7

Hi Robin. Crikey, you are doing really well. As the more learn’ed contributors (above) note we can all stand around nodding our heads looking down into the engine bay.

A June 22 start = 10 weeks in. That is a great place to be on the timeline in terms of fat adaptation for fuel and mitochondrial adaptiveness at the cellular level.

At risk of riding over @PaulL 's excellent comment above, I heard an anecdote about the “ammonia smell” that I will share.

Firstly, there are quite a few keto practitioner doctors who feel that it is best not to restrict protein based food sources. But that can be a can of worms. You will find some extended upward ranges of protein intake in some approaches. They tend toward low carb athletes and people interested in sculpting body shapes. I note that you have good hunger control, so it would be unlikely that you will over eat protein unless it was a conscious decision.

Anyhow the anecdote about the ammonia smell was from a doctor who uses sauna as part of his approach. He observed and noted that when he was eating grain-fed beef he smelled ammonia coming from his skin in the sauna. Whereas when he was eating pasture fed beef, the odour was not apparent. There was no further explanation. Which allows the topic to be open for speculation.

Let’s speculate.

Paul has noted the biochemistry of the uric acid cycle and the effect of overload with deaminated amino acids resulting in the production of ammonia. Another area for ammonia generation would be from the microbiome. If the smell is emanating from the skin, then it may be a change in the skin bacteria (most likely) to populations that enjoy an environment that results in them releasing ammonia as a by-product of their lives. My microbiology is hazy and off the cuff at the moment, but I think it has something to do with the availability of nitrogen in the bacterial inputs. So it may not be ‘you’ but your microbiome (which can be considered ‘you’, I guess?) that is generating some ammonia… Now I’ll have to go and look things up (but hoping @PaulL might jump back in and clear up the thought mess I just created).

There are all these threads to weave: https://www.ketogenicforums.com/search?q=ammonia

(Robin) #8

I drink water non-stop from the moment I get up. But the rest of what you said is so far over my head, I’m lost. My app shows both % and grams. I keep my carbs at about 12 grams per day. So, for instance, today was 12 g carbs, 19 total minus 6 grams fiber, 74 grams of fat, 57 grams of protein. I have my goal calories set at 1000. I never make that after I deduct exercise. In fact, I rarely make that without considering exercise. I have no idea about my lean tissue or body mass. I am overweight. Need to lose another 25 pounds to be at a reasonable and realistic weight that feels natural. In theory i know I should be taking in more calories, But I don’t like to eat when I’m not hungry and or keep eating when I’m satisfied.

(Robin) #9

Ya’ll are great. I truly appreciate all this input. The ammonia is when I urinate. Even though my urine is positively clear, from all the water I drink. Honestly, I’m not even positive how to fine tune what I am eating to specifically only adjust protein.

#10

That can be quite normal. Relates to what Paul said in his comment and is just a reflection of your body removing wastes. The key thing is that you are well hydrated and with clear urine. Thus, the ammonia smell is not from being dehydrated. Another way to think about it is that the body is responding to the positive nutritional approach and changes. That is creating changes and maintenance and repairs as your body remodels. There are some waste products from that health renovation. Other hippies call it detox. I think you are doing great. Keep Calm and Keto On = KCKO.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #11

1000 calories per day is very low. I think if you maintain that you’ll slow down your metabolism bigly, which you don’t want to do. I suspect your not feeling hunger is a symptom of that already. Yes, I know we’re all different, still you’re not eating much. Just my 2 cents.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #12

This is an intriguing possibility, and not one I’d considered.

Well, 57 g of protein a day is not enough to overwhelm your uric acid cycle, unless you only weigh 24 kg (53 lb.), so obviously there’s something else going on. It might be a good idea to speak to your physician, in case it’s serious.

As others have pointed out, you are restricting your calories to famine level. You are not likely to lose fat at that level of intake, because the body tries to hold on to its fat reserves until fairly late in the starvation process. You might wish to increase your protein a bit and your fat considerably. Adult men generally need in the neighbourhood of 2500 calories a day, women, around 2000. If you were to eat protein and fat to satiety, while keeping your carbohydrate at its current level, you might be surprised by the results.

(Robin) #13

Yes, I know it’s low calories and I wondered if that might actually slow things down. Keep in mind that besides general health, I need to lose another 25 lbs. (at least.) Carb Manager suggested I begin with 1700 to reach my goal. But I have a hard time just consuming that much food and keeping carbs under 20. I think I will ditch the app and just eat accordingly, and see how that goes after a couple of weeks. Maybe I got TOO caught up in the numbers game. I tend to go to the extreme in all things Thanks for your input.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #14

It shouldn’t be a problem if you are sticking to leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables, no? Especially if you are measuring net, as opposed to total, carbohydrate.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that caloric intake is by no means the whole story, and that the body’s hormonal response to the types of foods we eat is more relevant to whether we will gain or lose weight, and whether the weight gained or lost will be lean tissue or fat deposits.

(Robin) #15

Wow. I had to pause and take notes and really digest all this. A great explanation of Ketones and their affect on our metabolism. Thanks. This helps.