Carnivore For Muscle Gain

#21

Holy crap we agree on some stuff!

Agreed, CICO is flawed but it’s a hell of a lot more accurate than recording a fistful of meat.

Same here, fat isn’t a freebie and I gotta drop it when I want to loose it.

This one I disagree with all day though. That’s actually what made me start ignoring everything that came out of Phinney/Volek. All their people are lean wirery athletic types, not muscular. Using somebody that can burn 5k off a day isn’t a good marker for real life statements. Aside from the night and day difference in my gym performance when the carbs are up, also showed by anybody I know that lifts that’s done both high and low carb or keto, there can literally be almost an inch difference on my arms in 48hrs when there’s carbs in me. Wasn’t doing muscle biopsies on myself but checking bodyfat with calipers shows the difference between intramuscular and subcutaneous water. If it’s not under the skin, it’s in the muscle. Can’t gain that much muscle in 2 weeks let alone 2 days.

(Sama Hoole) #22

Great writeup. I’ve actually been taking an electrolyte powder (sodium, potassium, magnesium) before workouts on a few occassions, but I might as well make it a regular thing.

(Kenny Croxdale) #23

Muscle Cell Volumizing

To reiterate from my previous post, Muscle Cell Volumizing it optimized when the muscle cell is Super Hydrated; which literally pumps up the muscles That is the reason your arm size increased.

Cell Volumizing is maximized with…

1) Carbohydrate Loading

The protocol involves dramatically decreasing carbohydrates for three days and then essentially over consumption of them for three days.

There is a dramatic decrease in body (water weight) with the three day decrease in carbohydrates.

The three days of Carbohydrate Loading produces an increase in body (water) weight.

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

This diet employs about five days of the Ketogenic Diet followed by two days of Carb Loading.

Years ago, I and two of my friend used the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet for out Strength Training.

In a two day Car Load, I would gain just over 6 lbs of body weight. My two friend would gain over 10 lbs of body weight; they were much larger than I was, thus the difference.

All of our measurements and lifts jumped up after the Carb Load.

Downside of Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

Research Dr Jacob Wilson, University of Tampa’s Human Performance Lab, determined that two issue with the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet are…

  1. After Carb Loading, it took individual approximately 4 days to get back into ketosis. Thus, the body was only in ketosis for around 1 day a week.

  2. Greater fat mass was gained on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet.

Now back to,

Muscle Cell Volumizing…

  1. Creatine in most individuals (Responder Sensitive) produces increase Muscle Cell Volumizing; Super Hydration in the muscle cells.

Non-Responders are individual that don’t obtain the Cell Volumizing Effect with creatine; such as myself.

  1. Certain Anabolic Steroids

Dianabol and Anadrol are notorious for Super Hydration/Muscle Cell Volumizing; which increases muscle size and Maximum Strength.

  1. Increased Sodium

As we know, one of the issue with the Ketogenic Diet is that sodium is initially depleted on a low carbohydrate diet due to water weight loss.

However, once Keto Adapted, the body finds a way to rehydrate body and muscle cells.,

Sodium Intake Prior To Training

This method ensures an optimal training session.

An increase in sodium, increases the amount of fluid/water in the body; since water and sodium have an affinity for each other and are companions.

Individual on a Ketogenic Diet should consume something like…

Chicken Bullion Beverage

Most Chicken Bullion contains over 800 mg of sodium and over 210 mg of potassium. It’s a pretty tasty drink. .I usually add a little bacon fat to it because I like the flavor.

Consuming some type of high sodium beverage prior to training ensures a good workout.

High Salt Diets & Athletic Performance w/ Dr. James Dinicolantonio

This is a great interview with Dr. James Dinicolantonio on the value of increasing sodium intake for healthy individual and especially for Keto Adapted Athletes.

Summary

  1. Muscle Cell Volumizing prior to training and maintaining it, ensures optimal training results.

While Dehydration produces a decrease in performance and muscle size.

Super Hyperdation is on the opposite side of the See Saw; producing and increase in performance and muscle size.

  1. Multiple Method of Producing Cell Volumizing

  2. Creatine is effective with most individuals who are Responder Sensitive.

  3. Carb Loading is effective: consuming a high carbohydrate intake, especially prior to training.

  4. Certain Anabolic Steroids (Dianabol and Anadrol) produce Cell Volumizing.

Prednisone, and other corticosteroid, produce water weight gain, as well.

  1. Chicken Bullion Beverage

A high sodium beverage like Chicken Bullion for Keto Adapted individuals increases Cell Volumizing prior to training, as well as maintaining hydration while on the diet.

Water and sodium have an affinity for each other and are companions. Chicken Bullion has both.

#24

Big fan of both Mike and Doctor Di’Nic, loved the Salt Fix. I’ve done Cyclic keto and found it’s just better for me to have my carbs a little higher all the time than it is to cycle them. Cycling them started a lot of binges for me.

On the Dbol and Anadrol…YUP! They work like a champ! I’m actually prescribed Anadrol among a couple other goodies… I got an awesome Doc :grin:

(Sama Hoole) #25

I’m sure that’s the principle of growth hormone as well. More extracellular water, more strength. Tried something similar, but couldn’t deal with the fuzzy feeling from blood pressure.

And I prefer just titrating carbs around training, rather than messing with high / low days. No need to deal with sugar spikes that way.

(Chris) #26

I did it for 3 years solid and had a much better time when I switched back to carbs.

(Sama Hoole) #27

Better time as in for the gains?

(Bob M) #28

This is how I’m attempting to do it. Mainly, for the meal after exercising.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #29

For what it’s worth which may be not much. I’ve been lean all my life, my muscles have always been concentrated in my abdomen and legs. Chest and arms not so much. In my youth I was a middle distance runner. In that setting, stamina is more important than brute strength. Stamina meaning lots of energy delivered at a steady rate over time. And I had lots of it. I could run all day.

Long term, I’m now approaching 76 years, I think stamina and lungs to go with it served me well. I remain lean, muscles still concentrated in my abdomen and legs, still energetic and major injury free. During the decade of my 60s I put on a modest amount of excess weight/fat which came off easily and quickly when I started keto. I am currently at the same weight and body conformation I had at the age of 18. And I’ll take it.

Whenever I get slightly envious of you guys with bulging chests and biceps I console myself with the knowledge that our Pleistocene ancestors probably looked more like me than like you. Conan not withstanding. Our ancestors needed the ability to run all day, not lift rocks. I also question the long term health effects of doing some of the stuff you guys do to bulk up those muscles. For me, strict keto has been the best thing I ever did for myself and I don’t intend to muck it up.

Just my opinions. :sunglasses:

(Bob M) #30

Most likely true in terms of ancestors. Though my realization was that if you don’t have the genetics to be “huuge”, you won’t be. I don’t care how much you lift or take drugs. Lifting won’t turn Lance Armstrong into Arnold, or bike riding won’t turn Arnold into Lance.

I personally never took drugs of any sort. Did take protein, some supplements, etc.

Personally, I think long distance exercise is the worst thing we can do. I can’t find the study I want, but here’s one:

And I think the idea our ancestors ran all day is mistaken.

#31

We obviously all have different goals and priorities and circumstances… I do want the biggest biceps I can with my lazy self and being a 44 years old female… I don’t expect much but that I want. I love training my biceps and my shoulders the most anyway, not like it matters, I should train everything.

I’ve been lurking here since the beginning as this topic interests me and I do want bigger muscles in the near future and I can’t stay far from carnivore. And I won’t consume anything before my workouts if possible. I need to be well-fasted to have optimal energy for some reason, it seems.
I guess I shouldn’t worry about glycogen as I don’t lose or gain water weight anymore… Am I right? At least in my own case where it’s not about doing things perfectly or getting big muscles?

I won’t do extreme exercise for sure, I am too lazy for that. I merely plan to run some marathons and that seems pretty mild exercise to me, good for elderly but healthy enough people :slight_smile: Maybe I will figure out how not to be bored and miserable when running in the next decades… My SO runs but he can’t tell me what to do.
I plan to take running more seriously. I definitely has stamina problems, my activity went lower after a shocking life experience lately but I change that now.

I go and read the articles :slight_smile:

I don’t think our anchestors needed to run ALL DAY but running still was essential. That’s why I decided I have to learn how to run, I am a land animal who should be able to do that, after all. (Why I had this epiphany at 40, I don’t know. I never liked running, I liked walking and hiking so I never run - a tiny one after a bus almost killed me every time. I got a failed grade for running just like almost every girls in the class. We was good at maths, not P.E. How stupid to grade P.E. anyway.)

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #32

Thanks, Bob, I forgot about dope. Wasn’t even thinking about that! I agree that running 2 1/2 hour marathons is probably not healthy in the long run. I also agree that genetics has a lot to do with how your body develops and ends up.

Much ‘running’, however, is much more moderate than running competitive marathons. More like a ‘fast walk - shuffle’. I suppose the current ‘jog’ is an example. When you have to cover a lot of distance in a time frame that precludes just walking there, running is the way. BUT, not running like a marathon and not running with the intensity that breaks down your knees and ankles in the process. I think our ancestors traveled a lot, covered a lot of territory doing so, and didn’t break themselves doing it.

I haven’t run, other than to catch the bus occasionally, in many years. But I cycle. I think cycling at a moderate pace is just as good as running, although it may not involve the upper body quite so much. I think cycling - as ‘non impact’ - is probably sustainable far longer than running. There are folks who continue to run well into their age, but I think cycling is a better option, as long as you don’t have balance problems…

#33

I still think a marathon is fine. Doing it competitively and very often is another thing. I won’t care about my time unless it will be way too long… I wish to run a marathon quicker than walking it :smiley:
But if I manage to run a marathon at the age of, say, 115, I won’t care about the time either, probably :smiley:
Being the oldest one to run a marathon (or a half. I don’t like running for long but we will see) is one of my life goals. Not an important one but it sounds fun.

But I just want to be healthy. It’s known being the best physically isn’t healthy, one abuses their body for success.
But just jogging (possibly sometimes walking) for a few hours? It sounds something we should be able to do.

But I admit I know nothing about marathons personally.
But if a Hungarian woman can do it nearly every morning before giving breakfast to her kids and leaving to work… Except when she is on holiday, then she run her marathon and don’t go to work and possibly the father feeds the kids… So if she can do it every morning, I can do it a few times in my whole life, totally slowly while not damaging my health. I think.

Whatever, I am lazy and hedonistic enough to stop if I feel it’s too much for me. I will be careful. Maybe I really do half-marathons but those are so very short and less famous… :smiley:

#34

I want both. I prefer to be on my feet and I can run in the forest too, okay I cycle there but not in any forest. And while cycling feels easier and is more familiar (and quite different. I like different experiences. and it suits my lazy self better even if I go uphill a lot. without uphill it’s boring :D), it’s painful without the right bicycle with the right settings, at least people told me that’s why I can’t cycle for long, my arms are killing me. For running, I don’t need anything just a nice place without people and maybe proper shoes (and my water bottle, I can’t run without that, my SO can run 20km without water… Far not ideal but it happened. I would have stopped after the first 100 meters and run back for my water).

(Sama Hoole) #35

I refuse to believe my stone age ancestors weren’t busting out bicep curls. We probably used branches over barbells, hence why there’s no archaeological data.

But in all seriousness, I see the Hadza brought up constantly as an example of our evolutionary physique. Except they reflect the closing stages of the paleo period, when meat and fat was becoming scarce.

We wouldn’t have been conan sized, but definitely bigger than the Hadza.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #36

I don’t talk about the Hazda or for that matter any so-called ‘modern’ hunter gatherers. Possible exceptions being the Inuit and the plains Indians prior to European contact. I agree that they are not representative of our Pleistocene ancestors’ lifestyle. Few folks realize the tremendous change in flora and fauna that occurred at the end of the Pleistocene and beginning of the Holocene, nor the extent that the agricultural revolution changed the planet. So I don’t think our Pleistocene ancestors were skinny runts with pot guts either.

(Chris) #37

Yup. Losses too when the time comes to be honest, just not as much. Carbs become the caloric bargaining chip in the cut since my fats are already at the low end anyway.

(Sama Hoole) #38

So just wrapped up my carnivore bulk, where I ended up incorporating some low toxicity carbs around training. 22kg up over 10 months. Some of that fat, some of that beef, and on the whole it’s not too bad a diet as far as muscle gain goes.

Now it gets fun.

(Bob M) #39

What kind of low toxicity carbs?

I tried sweet potato, but my body does not like that.

It’s strawberry season where I live, and I’ve had some of those. They are good, but I’d probably have to have a lot of them for any real carb input. (Would love to have a CGM, too, to see what happens. I hypothesize that eating some carbs after exercise would yield very low to no blood sugar response, but don’t know.)

(Sama Hoole) #40

Dextrose for workouts, white rice for post-workouts. Never had any issues with either, and to be honest it was quite nice to switch it up.