Im just south of 40 and floating between 270-275 at 6’1 currently. big frame.
Carnivore Diet N=1 and High Triglycerides Riddle
kairos
(Samuel Ashford)
#62
Thanks. Not sure about all body types, but in general it seems to me that bigger folks do better when they move over to a cleaner way of eating, and low carb or carnivore in particular. Not that all lean people don’t do well. I just have this hunch that the leaner people have a much narrower threshold of how much incoming energy they can take or make use of / clear from their bodies. Anyway, that’s opposite of what Dave Feldman experienced in his inversion of fat intakes (through the roof high). But I recall Dr. Ted Naiman saying that when certain of his patient population guzzled fats, their lipids blew up. Opposite of the Feldman protocol.
Alpha
(Omar)
#63
yes I read in several places they call it " test hacking " or manipulation when quitting coffee or mct prior to the test.
Not sure where the term come from while there is a genuine mechanism for the coffee to inhibit some liver functions ( in some people). It is not some kind of interference with the lab standard test procedure by ingesting a substance to hack the result.
daddyoh
(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!)
#64
I love these sardines. Don’t eat them more than 2 / week but I do a variety of salmon, smoked salmon and then 1 / week smoked mackerel.
Stevejill91
(Steve ricci )
#65
I know this is an older post but I’ve been searching for this information. Ive slays done well on LC . 1st time i read protein power. 20ys after gaining 50lc in cycling accident. Worked well. Blood work was good. This last year 2018 i did carnivore. And lousy weight after multiple injuries in sports. Blood work sucked , A1c was good, 5.4. Tris hi, hdl 42. My BP started to spike hi. I recently increased potassium and increased carbs some. Ive become lost again. You mentioned protien power and the lack of saturating everything with butter. Maybe for me that is the key. My macros are very much like yours. I go back to the doctor in a couple months for new blood test. Anymore thoughts or findinds
atomicspacebunny
(Bunny)
#66
‘Supposedly’ that “…increases your risk for heart disease…” “…blah blah blah; but it could also mean your burning more fat (e.g. high protein, i.e. carnivore) and your getting blood analyzed while that process is taking place? The fat cells theoretical ‘whoosh effect’ (fat cells are being expressed; contracting {flushing content; shrinking} rather than expanding {inflammation = obesity, diabetes, insulin resistance etc.}?) hypothesis from no vegetable (plant based*) oils/fats esp. heated and processed hydrogenated trans fats? Sugar and high carbohydrate consumption being the deciding co-factor of bad or good outcomes (prognosis) with saturated, unsaturated, monosaturated and the sterols in fats when it comes to observing blood serum analysis ratios and variables?
*Note: With the exception of cooking with unprocessed coconut and palm oils that have been cold pressed only and not rancid/oxidized or differences when consumed raw (not heated) and its effect on blood serum triglycerides?
kairos
(Samuel Ashford)
#70
Interesting. Dave just did a little experiment with TGs on his carnivore diet demonstrating that the TGs are all over the map until a certain number of hours in his case, after which they stabilize. I take that as this: a LOT is going on with fat metabolism until everything digested is processed according to needs, and then it levels out. I recently had labs done that revealed the lowest lipid numbers I’ve seen in two years. The key difference was not particularly diet. I’d been not quite zero carb during December, but where my TGs had been as high as 340 in October, they were 115 on Jan 2. The only thing I did different was a LONGER fast before blood draw. Normally it’s about 8-10 hrs fasting. Jan 2 was 16 hours fasting. Sluggish metabolism? Looks like it to me.
Hap
#71
I threw out all my pickles when I saw how much SUGAR they have and I only looked because I got an insulin spike after eating some.
kairos
(Samuel Ashford)
#73
It’s been a while.
I’m updating this thread, since starting it many moons ago in July 2018.
I began low carb in 2003 with the Eades’ program: THE PROTEIN POWER LIFEPLAN. I lost weight (though I’ve never been BIG) and my TGs dropped from 178 (not super high) to 45.
I MUST EMPHASIZE that this was NOT “HIGH FAT” - only low carb. That is the intervention phase of the diet in that book. Restrict carbs and don’t overdo the fat. Teach your body to burn its own fat.
Fast forward to 2016. Since then, in playing around with low-carb, HIGH FAT (emphasis), my triglycerides have been in the stratosphere - never below the normal lab range of 150 mg/dl, and on more than one occasion north of 400.
Parenthetically, I recall often a podcast (Human Performance Outliers) with Ted Naiman wherein he relates that in his clinical practice there are individuals who cannot “drink” oils and do well. The lipids simply blow up in their blood and they cannot tolerate HIGH FAT without issues. I THINK THIS IS KEY.
I believe I might be one of those individuals.
This is NOT TO SAY that I cannot be LOW CARB. I think I have a profound intolerance to carbs and must keep them low.
Here’s the takeaway:
October 2018 ended my Carnivore experiment for that year. EVEN WITH CARNIVORE my trigs had been north of 300.
After that, I went back to the Eades model. TGs went down to 225 in a week.
Here’s a snapshot from my “LABS” spreadsheet:
As you can see, the 2003 Eades experiment was looking pretty awesome. I kept that up for many years, well into my running career beginnings in 2010, throughout 2015. In 2015, I wasn’t anal at all, even allowing for a few more carbs here and there, and had my best marathon yet at 3:37. Lest you think it’s all to be attributed to running, I had amazing labs in 2014 (February) and wasn’t running at all.
Okay, so September 24 of 2018 ended the Carnivore. A week later I was at Ken Berry’s office (pre-fire days) in Camden, and we had a conversation about the Eades Paleo-ish model. He said that might very well be best for me.
So, I embarked.
In a month, my TGs had dropped to 129.
By 1/2/19, they were down to 115, and my TG/HDL ratio was the best it’s been in who knew how long.
I kept this up and began training for the 2019 St. Jude Marathon, at a really slow pace, throughout the Spring and into summer. As you can see in the June labs, they were stellar, almost back to the low 47 TGs of 2003.
Fast forward to Feb of 2020. Through the winter I was sloppy low carb, not so fatty again. And STILL the TGs looked okay, and all lipids looked just fine.
So, again, what takeaway?
Granted, these are very basic lipid labs. But I’m looking at a range of tests over time when I DID NOT consume high fat on a daily basis. My fat intake in 2016 was sometimes upward of 250 grams a day. I was obsessed with ketones. Some days ketones were north of 6 mmol. I backed off the fat, and experimented with carnivore - TWICE. Still not a fit. I returned to my low carb roots, and… magic.
Now, I am a HUGE believer in bio-individuality. If LCHF works for you, then great. I know that for me, I can’t - for whatever reason - clear the fat from the blood as I would like. I feel fantastic on the Eades’ model, and I’ll probably stay here for the foreseeable future.
I’m exhausted for the moment chasing the science on this. Don’t expect lengthy discussion over this from my side. I just wanted to post an update.
If this helps anyone, great. I simply wanted to add my two cents to the conversation around the unique differences between individuals, and that one size absolutely does not fit all.
Thanks.
La_Vita_Carne
(La Vita Carne)
#74
Kairos,
After months of trying to figure out my high TGs ran into this thread. Created account just to say
Thanks!
kairos
(Samuel Ashford)
#75
First, let me say, “Welcome!”
Secondly, I would hope that my story helps someone. I can tell you that it’s been a seriously frustrating journey at times. Frankly, I simply don’t dwell on it anymore. Would it be fantastic to discover the perfect metabolic “place” and the answers in terms of lifestyle, nutrition, exercise, etc. that would facilitate that place? Certainly. Do I believe it will happen? Not really. At least, not to the degree that would create a “dream” labwork scenario. Not for me (anymore - maybe when I was 18).
Those who I truly admire in this life are people who’ve accepted that they’re not going to live forever, and who have found a passion and have become determined to stay in the place of that passion - not out of an anxious and driven motivation of what they should do, but out of what brings them joy. That is ultimately my takeaway from my years of plowing through all this.
At the same time, I truly applaud the folks on this forum who are working tirelessly to present solutions that literally snatch others out of the paths that are leading them to an early death. Major, major kudos. Especially Richard and Carl, for founding this space. And I celebrate the people who freely give their time and their talents to enriching the quality of life of those who don’t have the scientific gifts of sorting out all this metabolic mayhem - again, not because they feel they are obligated, but because they genuinely delight in doing it. They are doing it because of the joy of witnessing the successes they are able to help bring about. Thanks to everyone here who is putting in the effort to do that.
As for my own story with triglycerides, what do I know? Best I can tell from the scientific literature, we don’t want them hanging out in the blood because of their tendency to damage the endothelium. And we all know that damaged endothelial cells are no good, as this is the first step to CVD.
As for me, personally, I have discovered that I simply am a challenged individual when it comes to clearing TGs from circulation. I’ve learned - at least for myself (and apparently, judging from the literature, I’m not alone) - that omega 3 fatty acids (in the form of high quality fish oil supplements) are powerful aids in accomplishing clearance. Low carb is great. But in my case it is not an end all.
I’ve also learned (thank you, Ted Naiman) that many people simply can’t drink oil and eat fat liberally and not reap some unfavorable consequences. Doesn’t mean we can’t burn fat and ketones. It just means we can’t inject olive oil into our veins and come out on top. So, as in many aspects and areas of human health, there are degrees of bio-individuality to consider.
I’ve learned that endurance sports truly helps in raising HDL, and thus improving the ratio of fats to HDL. And of course, further improvement of TG clearance - thanks, HDL.
I’ve also learned (thanks, Dave Feldman) that TGs in the circulation are not a static thing, but that the levels are fluctuating throughout the day in response to a variety of signals, not the least of which is energy input and output. Blood tests really are just snapshots in time.
I’ve learned, as well, that coffee (again, thanks Dave) can be an antagonist to TG clearance. Particularly unfiltered (think French Press) coffee. Certain compounds in the coffee are the culprits. Look up Dave’s work at cholesterolcode.com, and on this forum.
And last but not least, there seems to be some truth to the way that TGs in the bloodstream and the ever so popular Carnivore Diet play on one another in some people.
So, I applaud you for caring about your health and your life. Keep up the work until you are satisfied that you know yourself well. Use the tools offered on this forum. Don’t get discouraged by those who are “rock stars” with blood values. You are not them - you are you. Stay focused on your own journey. We humans are all very much biologically alike, but there is also a lot of variability and nuance. Knowing yourself - what works and doesn’t - is well worth the a little hard work and a few N=1 experiments. Just find a place you’re content with, and sure in yourself that you’re doing all you can to manage your health. But don’t let it drive you nuts.