Carnivore claims about plant foods

(Robert C) #222

From the “Nature of Diet” section of the linked document – Stefansson and Anderson’s diet:

If someone is eating Carnivore including all of those parts (which looks like it is getting close to nose-to-tail) and eating animal meat produced from animals that were not raised by modern methods (Stefansson and Anderson did their experiment in the 1920’s) then one might be encouraged by the positive results they had.

But, if someone is just eating cheap (antibiotic filled, growth hormone filled unnaturally (grain) fed) meat – I do not think they can use the Stefansson and Anderson results to justify their way of eating. I think this kind of diet would be much better thought of as a short term elimination diet (which may be very beneficial).

http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

#223

Prove to me plants provide anything essential I need that can’t be obtained from animals. Shifting the burden of proof back on you.

(Robert C) #224

Humans have adapted to be able to consume plants. That is a big and difficult evolutionary strategic move that probably should not be completely ignored.

Again, the issue of Carnivore being completely undefined is the issue.

Nose-to-tail might supply everything essential but, if your implementation is cheap Ribeye daily - unlikely everything essential is in there.

#225

That wasn’t my question. We can sit here and play “but if the diet is constructed poorly” game all day with any diet. The question to this person was, is there any essential thing that plants provide that cannot be found in an animal product?

(G Whistler) #226

I don’t think it’s my burden of proof to meet, but I don’t see any amount of magnesium, potassium, vitamins c,e,and k1, as well as good amounts of thiamine and, depending on your preferences, calcium and even folate. The latter I direct at those who advocate eating beef muscle meat only.

I am happy to be corrected.

(G Whistler) #227

A fair observation, but for the fact that no small number (IME) of carnivore advocates claim that eating beef muscle meat only is sufficient.

(Robert C) #228

If you do not get outside much - essential to you is vitamin D.
If your ancestors are from near the equator - essential to you might be 50+ grams of carbs per day.
“Essential” is relative - just as doctors following guidelines is a bad idea, “essential” is going to be unpredictable.

(Robert C) #229

Calorie restriction works for about 6 months - and works very well.
Then metabolism strikes back and weight is regained, usually plus more.
Carnivore is simply too new to go along with the early success of a few.

#230

The burden of proof is on you, because you’ve been linked more than enough sources to prove that all those things are covered by animal products, that K2 is the vitamin we require more than K1 (hence why Carnivores don’t need to supplement K1, but Vegans need to supplement K2). And I didn’t say anything about beef muscle only. I said animal product. Stop dodging my question. Tell me one thing I need to survive that I can only get from plants and not animals.

(Karim Wassef) #231

Vitamin C is plentiful in liver. Eating plants consumes Vitamin C forcing a higher requirement. Eating animals does not.

https://chriskresser.com/natures-most-potent-superfood/

Vitamin E is in eggs and seafood.

http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server../INFO/BOOKS-PHDS/BOOKS/FOODFACTS/html/data/data3d.html

Vitamin K1 vs. K2 is debatable. I have yet to find a resource that says that we need K1. In fact, K2 is what our biology has the most access to and needs to properly drive bone growth without driving calcium into soft tissue.

If you want to reduce carnivore to muscle meat only, then change the topic. To eliminate fish, eggs and liver from carnivore is basically arguing for arguing’s sake and redefine the question to be non meaningful to the majority of carnivores.

In these cases, I find it most useful to run personal experiments and find what works for you. Try vegan for a few years, for example.

(G Whistler) #232

We know that we need these nutrients. That isn’t in question. The amount and from where are the pertinent questions.

50 g carbs isn’t essential, it might be preferrential. It might even be healthier for some, somehow. This sounds like equivocation to me, with respect

(G Whistler) #233

depends on your definition of rich, I suppose: https://www.checkyourfood.com/ingredients/ingredient/229/chicken-liver

That article by Kresser doesn’t cite a source afaict (I could be wrong, I didn’t see one).

Likewise for eggs and seafood wrt Vitamin E. In both cases there’s some. But not much. Is that enough? I don’t now. You can get almost as much with EVOO

It’s not really sufficient to say “it has some”, the amount is what’s relevant.

(Karim Wassef) #234

9 oz of liver is over 80mg of Vitamin C. The carb addicted RDA metric that assumes consuming plant food requires 60mg … so it is VERY rich.

If you have other requirements - please state them. If you don’t know what you need, then the question of “what is enough” is rhetorical and only intended to argue more.

(Karim Wassef) #235

fish roe have vitamin E … 6 mg per 3oz serving. The RDA is 15mg… so again 9oz is more than sufficient to meet that “recommended” value. You can add egg and other seafood for variety.

2 large eggs gives 3mg

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4554?fgcd=&manu=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=50&offset=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=fish+roe&ds=

https://www.dietitians.ca/getattachment/341815c0-a66a-4cdb-a6e7-33606b74d5fe/Factsheet-Food-Sources-of-Vitamin-E.pdf.aspx

hmmm… so pretty easy to make a meal with enough vitamin E

(G Whistler) #236

Ok, fair enough.

But what about electrolytes?

Roe, is hard to find without all sorts of crap added

(Karim Wassef) #237

what about electrolytes? the questions doesn’t make sense.

roe comes from fish … what crap are you finding?

Look - here’s the fundamental basic concept here… ALL animals basically are up the food chain from some kind of photosynthetic plant/algae. Everything that’s in those plants moves up the food chain to the animals. Eat a variety of animals and you get it all.

plankton - shrimp
algae - fish
grass - cow
acorn - pig
seeds - fowl

also - animals process, modify, remove toxins and focus the nutrients. They are biological machines and they do an amazing job of it.

(Chris) #238

Probably have that backwards. We have to assume our ape ancestor descended from frugivores and our beginning to nom on meat, brains, and bone marrow for those sweet, sweet ketones was probably what caused the rapid brain growth we enjoyed.

(G Whistler) #239

I have no idea how you think my question made no sense.

Electrolytes are essential for life. Are they available without plants in sufficient quantities.

Seems a fairly straightforward question to me

(Karim Wassef) #240

are you saying that you think animal products have no electrolytes but plants do?

those same animals that eat all those plants with those electrolytes in them?

#241

Still waiting on an answer.