Cardio/weight routine. Carbs?

(Luke) #21

This sounds good! Thank you.

(Luke) #22

Thank you for the feed back guys. I like the idea of working out while just sticking to keto , hoping that it will strip all my fat away. It gives me confidence that you 2 guys in particular, fully support the idea of no carbs.

(Joey) #23

This recent post here by @ctviggen might be of interest…

Crossover study, 31 days high or low carb, runners, experienced no difference in performance

#24

Fat simply cannot provide the energy needed for ATP synthesis at higher intensities.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #25

I’m not sure about that. Fat can certainly power endurance. Phinney cites the case of one year’s winner of the Western States 100 iron man competition, who ran a marathon the next day, just for fun (he finished pretty close to the head of the pack, too, as I recall).

What we do need glucose for is explosive power. But Volek and his team have shown that by two years on a ketogenic diet, athletes’ glycogen stores are indistinguishable from those of their carb-burning colleagues.

#26

Look up UCAN Generation. It is a super starch that can give you carbs without the spike. I have used it on and off for about 7 years. Science is solid.

(Joey) #27

Might I ask for some scientific reference to back up this statement?

Unless I’ve misunderstood what I’ve read on the topic (primarily Vinek/Phinney books and papers), it’s been demonstrated experimentally that the need for exogenous glucose (i.e., eating carbs) is not needed for intense performance once one’s mitochondria are sufficiently fat-adapted. Hence my question.

#28

For the targeted keto you really wouldn’t want food because it’s not fast enough, doesn’t really matter the brand, just any Dextrose or Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin Powder will do it. Either grab on Amazon or any sports nutrition store, they all stock them. In a pinch you could grab a bunch of glucose tablets from a pharmacy where all the diabetic stuff is, or if you want the only real food that’s also basically pure glucose, Gummy Bears! But don’t do that if you think it’d lead you to start eating junk after. That can be a thing with some people because you’re eating junkfood. With the other two, you’re just drinking something real quick.

If you do that Cyclic Keto thing and do carb reloads, yes, you’d do that with real foods. You’d want the better carbs at that point, starchy not sugary.

As an example, tonight I’m doing a small reload and eating a huge chicken breast, around 250g of sweet potato and some broccoli. Nothing crazy, probably gonna be around 50-60g of carbs. Before a leg day or something, My dinner the night before would be like 100g.

#29

Yes, I am aware of this. The intensity was at about 64% of Vo2max. This is still a relativity easy pace. Both elite athletes would be burning primarily fat at this level and very few carbs. I would expect the fat-adapted to burn more fat, but I think Volek shows 2x as much fax oxidation? That is very interesting. I would be interested to see what the intensity level is when their blood lactate level goes above 2. This is the point when the body starts to burn a higher and higher percentage of carbs vs fat for fuel. World-class endurance athletes can stay below 2 even at higher intensities. T2 diabetics can have a blood lactate level above 2, even when walking, fat loss is very hard. This is why keto and IF can work for them.
In real-world examples look at the Kenyan runners who are by far the best endurance runners ever in history, dominating all top events internationally for decades. Carb intake is about 75%. Now there could be a lot of reasons for this including evolutionary as well.
Last time I check I was not world-class in any sport, nor do I produce world-class numbers in any sport that I compete in. However, when your pay-cheque is dependent on your results, you will choose what works best in the real world, and if that is carbs then so be it.

(Joey) #30

And if it’s hormones and amphetamines? :wink:

(Luke) #31

Thank you👍🏻

#32

To be clear, I agree with lower-intensity exercise, or ultra-endurance exercise, a low-carb diet can match a conventional high-carb diet and even help you use more fat as fuel. (2x fat oxidation) There is not one body of research that shows that carbohydrates are bad for performance. Its as though some believe that carbohydrates were sent to earth by aliens to exterminate humankind.

Here are some of the references you requested:

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jappl.1994.76.6.2253?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org

(Joey) #33

Thank you for the links to research. I will devote some time to learning more.

Just to clarify, I never said carbs are bad for performance. The question was whether fats - in lieu of carbs - were inferior.

As for carbs sent to earth to exterminate humankind, there are many who have made the credible case that plants’ protective phytotoxins evolved to keep mammals like us from eating them. (I still enjoy my salads as I like to live dangerously.) :wink:

#34

At lower intensities, those who are keto/fat-adapted can burn up to 2.3x more fat than those athletes who are not. (Valek). Their research was rather limited as they did not beyond about 64% of Vo2max. They also did not do any muscle biopsy in the HC group. There is a point (cross-section) when blood lactate rises over 2 that the body starts to demand more and more glucose as the intensities increase. This can be measured with a blood lactate device. In highly trained/professional endurance athletes this happens at a much higher intensity level than your average person. At low intensities, both the keto/LCH and the HC burn mostly fat and very little sugar. I would expect the fat adaptive would be more efficient at burning fat at this lower intensity level. Phinney and Volek have shown this. The difference is at higher intensity and length of the event. Exogenous (outside of the body) carbs are used to meet this demand.

I do not think it is as simple as they say it is. I firmly believe that food has a duality. Too little is not good, too much is also not good. If what they say is correct then the 80 million vegans must be very sick? Eat the best quality food possible.

(Joey) #35

If one doesn’t care about protein, calcium, iron and B12, then pure veganism is ideal.

Otherwise, plan on sick.

#36

Be careful in your confirmation biases. There are very healthy vegans out there. If you choose to only read or view a certain opinion, then that is all you will see. There are unhealthy Keto/Carnivores out there too. You have chosen a particular diet/protocol that works for you. But just because it works for you right now, does not mean it will always work for you or that it will work for everyone. For example, I have noticed a trend over the years that Keto was not the first diet/protocol they started with. They may have moved from Paleo and when that stopped working they moved to Keto. When Keto stopped working they moved on to Carnivore. And when that stops working or their expectations are not being met, they start blaming themselves and a downward spiral begins. Over-eating is the consequence. And I suspect it is beyond their control. You are lucky that it works for you and you expectations are being met.

(Joey) #37

My confirmation biases are what keep me going. :wink:

I do appreciate the encouragement - although, to be truthful, I do expect to be dead at some point, regardless of my eating habits. :vulcan_salute:

(Robin) #38

Now, THAT will be the final confirmation. :vulcan_salute:

#39

I know it keeps me going too.

#40

It’s VERY easy to get the protein as a vegan. The others too though B12 usually requires supplements (I have read some people can produce it with their gut biome… but many not and they can’t get it from plants). But most ketoers take supplements too, it’s no big deal.
It’s easy to get plenty of calcium from tasty plant food (I love poppy seeds :D), the iron is tricky as plant iron isn’t the same as meat iron but it’s complex, the absorption can be helped by Vitamin C, I have read (never did very very deep research as I was merely curious about veganism, never wanted to do it so it wasn’t so important for me)… But again, maybe more supplements.

Why is this about protein all the time when veganism or even vegetarianism is the topic? Super easy to get plenty of protein, even completted… True, many people neglect it (I still can’t wrap my head around it, protein is everywhere and added up quickly all my life… but yes, people with smaller food need and very different tastes exist… I LOVE and need my copious amount of protein, protein sources are often super delicious) but it’s the people’s fault, not the one of the diet…

And no, if I don’t care about nutrients, pure veganism still is far from ideal :smiley: I am a hedonist and like to enjoy my food. While the vegan kitchen is super delicious if I do it in my way, I would miss my animal food very much very soon :slight_smile: And it would be a headache to get proper nutrients. And I don’t take supplements… It’s would be a worrisome life. And I personally had to fight against sugar poisoning, all those super tempting carby things kind of, potentially, in moderation in my diet and I can’t eat them to my heart’s content, I would need lots of training… And I still would be able to do only keto (I would need to eat a ton of gluten and pea protein, probably, at least I don’t see a better option… maybe those fancy allegedly complete ones? I am not sure I believe that, actually…), not the extreme low-carb my body loves best. Yep, veganism isn’t a good fit for many of us…

Sorry I got carried away but I like the topic for some reason. I always find it fascinating to try to fit into something extreme. I only do it theoretically (or for a single day but that’s nothing like longer term, I can even get away with bad nutrition), thankfully I don’t need to realize it.

Surely there are many healthy, strong vegans. If it would be as unhealthy as many people think, it wouldn’t be that popular I suppose…