A basic question: are all carbs the same? Or are refined carbs (sugar, bread, rice, potatoes) “worse” than carbs such as vegetables (lettuce, cucumber …)?
Intuitively, refined carbs should be the “bad guys”, but it seems most people speak about carbs in general, seemingly putting all carbs (from lettuce to sugar) on the same level.
I also understand that to enter into ketosis, the limit is 20g per day. And probably this includes all kind of carbs.
But for example, to stabilize oneself, shouldn’t a diet be more based on vegetables (plus fat plus protein), while trying to avoid refined carbs as much as possible?
If so, a low “refined carb” diet would be akin to a Mediterranean diet (at least, the traditional Mediterranean diet … now some people try to argue the Mediterranean diet had lots of bread and sugar … LOL).
The standard for a healthy ketogenic diet is to cut out all refined carbs (sugar, starches, grains) and get your 20g of carbs from the vegetables.
You can certainly eat a modified Mediterranean diet and still manage to be ketogenic. Think fish, poultry, eggs, cheese, lots of salads and low-carb above-ground vegetables, berries, nuts, olive oil, butter.
Lentils are about 20% total carbs - 100g of boiled lentils has 20g of carbs, 8g of fiber. So about 12g net carbs if you are going by net.
People have different tolerances for how much carbohydrates in total they can consume per day and not regain weight, so you’ll have to experiment once you get to your maintenance weight.
Most legumes/pulses are pretty high in carbs, so you’d probably have to keep quantities low, or eat them infrequently.
They are not “refined” carbs because they are just the naturally occuring carbohydrates in the foods themselves, unless they are processed in some way. But your body will process them into glycogen, same as all other carbs. So you do need to keep in mind the quantity.
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#5
The short answer is that sugars are worse than other carbohydrates, but all the rest are pretty much alike, except for fiber, which is indigestible. Most carbohydrate is nothing more than strings of glucose molecules arranged in various ways. Some of those ways—cellulose, for instance—are not digestible by the human body. That’s what we call fiber.
Other carbohydrates come apart very easily in the human body, whether simple starches or complex carbohydrates. Those are the ones we particularly want to avoid.
The reason is that glucose in the bloodstream, above a certain very low amount, is toxic to the human body. It reacts with with many different types of cells, producing what are called advanced glycation end-products. These AGE’s are not only damaged themselves, but they in turn cause further damage. Glycated red blood cells, for example, are much more likely to clot and thus greatly increase the risk of coronary thrombosis and stroke. This is why your HbA1C is such an important number.
Because glucose is a toxin, the body mobilises to remove if from the bloodstream. When the β cells in the Islets of Langerhans in the pancreas detect an excess of glucose, they secrete insulin and send it out to the liver for distribution. The liver degrades about 50% of the secreted insulin and releases the remainder into the bloodstream, where it stimulates muscle cells to absorb glucose (they either metabolise it on the spot or store it as glycogen for later use) and stimulates adipocytes (fat cells) to store glucose as fat. The fat cells then wait for the insulin level to fall before releasing the fatty acids to be metabolised. If the insulin level never falls (because we keep eating carbohydrate), the fatty acids remain trapped in the adipocytes.
Sucrose and other complex sugars are a special case, because they are combined from glucose and fructose. Fructose can be metabolised only in the liver, and in quantity it overloads the metabolic pathway and results in the creation of fat (a process called de novo lipogenesis). This leads to fatty liver disease, steatohepatitis, cirrhosis, and eventually death, if the progression is not halted.
So fiber is safe, being indigestible; starches and grains are to be avoided, because of their glucose; and sugars are most especially to be avoided, because of the fructose combined with the glucose.
So, in your opinion fruit (with fructose) is “worse” than bread (with grains, but I assume no sugars)?
PaulL
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?)
#7
Opinion is divided, and I’m not sure what I think anymore. One expert I respect believes that the fiber in most fruits slows the absorption of the fructose to a rate that the liver can handle. (It is certainly true that eating the equivalent number of apples to a glass of apple juice would slow anyone down!) But other experts I respect tend to feel that fiber may not be so good for us anyway, so avoid fibrous foods altogether.
One thing that can be said for fructose, apart from its effect on liver and brain (it’s addictive to some people), is that it doesn’t stimulate the secretion of insulin. That’s why, in the days before the potential liver problems were known about, researchers believed that fructose was a safe alternative to other sugars containing glucose.
But it’s hard to find fructose separate from glucose anyway. Table sugar—sucrose—is a molecule of glucose bonded to a molecule of fructose, so any time you eat sugar, you’re getting half glucose and half fructose. High fructose corn syrup is 55% fructose and 45%glucose, so sodas are still pounding your metabolism pretty hard.
Artificial sweeteners are an option, but they affect people differently and can spike insulin (though they don’t affect glucose). Opinions seem to range from “not great, but use 'em if you must” to “No! No! No! They’re the spawn of Satan!”
Refined carbs are only “Bad Guys” as far as that goes. They’re definitely not on the same level as carbs from lettuce and even a higher carb vegetable like a carrot.
I’m assuming you’re following a ketogenic diet…where all refined carbs are restricted.
From the very first time I heard about Keto, all the way to now, I’ve never heard it said to, “Restrict these kinds of carbs, or those kinds of carbs, or sugary carbs, etc” …but rather “Carbs” period.
Therefore, I’ve never tried to differentiate one kind of carb from another. I just keep my carbs below 20 a day, and I’m good I treat them all like poison.
Some people use total carbs and some people use net carbs. For those tracking net carbs, then the difference between unrefined and refined carbs matters, as the fiber determines the amounts that can be eaten.
Understand, the 20g per day limit is the number that has been determined where anyone can enter ketosis. Some people are in ketosis at different carb intakes, up to 100g depending on body composition and activity level. The goal is to find the maximum number of carbs that will keep you in ketosis. Some people here don’t ever go past the 20, others of us use that as a rough guideline and add as seems appropriate. Yes, a Mediterranean type diet is close, as it’s actually low in pasta and wheat, high in low-glycemic veggies and proteins with healthy fats.
Yep. And almost along the same lines, I am a big, not very efficient caveman of a guy. I believe I need substantially more cals than the average 6ft guy. I think 200-230lbs is a good weight for me, depending on how much muscle I’m carrying… (I would prefer to be 240 or 250 @ 9% bf)
So when it comes to that 20gm a day guideline, I’ve often felt I could stay in ketosis eating 30 or 40gms of carbs a day… But again, I know that if I stay below 20, I don’t even have to think about it.
As a matter of fact wild rice (not mixed with other species of rice) or certain types/species of seaweed can replace the consumption of meat (B-12). I’m no where near being a vegan or vegetarian just stating the facts…
You can also get into ketosis eating just whole potatoes that have been boiled cooled several times with a little salt and pepper…
I treat them all like poison.