Carb cycling after keto plateau not working

(Chris Holmes) #1

I am 6’ 0", 53 yrs old male. I did strict keto (20 net g carbs) for 13 months. FIrst 7 months, lost about 40lbs. Next 3 months, lost about 6, then no change. I was stuck at 174lbs. I switched to carb cycling using the following macros:

Sun & Tues 270g carb, 44g fat, 171g protein (2160 cal)
Rest of days 50g carb, 97g fat, 181g protein (1797 cal)

Still cardio and weight training the same as on keto - 4-6 days/week for 60 mins

I started the carb cycling in March, and since then I was able to break past the 174 lb mark, however after doing it now for 6mos, I am maintaining between 169 and 171 depending on whether I am on a high or low carb day. I cannot seem to go any lower.

Pretty sure that I hit a keto plateau around the 7mo mark, and figured the carb cycling would break it, and allow me to put on muscle. The muscle part is working, because I am getting noticable bigger arms, etc…, however I still have a little softness in abdomen which I would like to get rid of. Any thoughts?

(Scott) #2

I am the same with a little of belly fat to lose. I am not a fan of carb cycling mostly because I am low carb and it just seems like regression to me. I hit plateaus or stalls and don’t get real upset by them as the closer I get to ideal weight the more frequent they become. I am only about 4 pounds off right now so it takes time to see results show up. I do like to experiment to see what happens. In the last six months I have increased running to 25 miles a week, do a Nautilus set three times a week and have done a bit better. My most recent is to reduce the amount of scotch I drink and reduce beer during the week. It seems to be helping. I figure hey, I am not gaining, I am maintaining and I have time to play around to see what gives me the last little push over the finish line. If you are like me I think it takes consistent dedication to keto and fitness to slowly get that softness to go away. I have also found that a good plank routine helps get the underside of the softness ready for the reveal and helps with posture. I need to get back to doing planks again.

(Susan) #3

I agree, it is like yo-yo dieting cycle doing this.

If you are stalled, just Fast.

(Chris Holmes) #4

Thanks for the thoughts. I am one of those rare folks who can be on strict keto and still have the energy to do hard strength training in the gym, and I am really additced to it. I also had zero difficulty hitting my keto macros, and rarely had any cravings to “cheat” The only alcohol I like is beer, and probably consumed a total of 30 corona premier’s in the entire year I was doing Keto. The plateau I hit lasted a good 4mos, with no actual loss on the scale, although that could be attributed to redistribution. One thing I really like about the carb cycling is the fact that I am doing around 1g protein for each lb of body weight, which I really think has helped me add muscle mass. I just want to flatten the belly a bit more to reveal the muscle I have have worked so hard to build underneath.

(Susan) #5

Another reason to Fast =) Autophagy gets rid of the flab =).

(Ken) #6

If you’re actively gaining muscle, it’s difficult to lose fat at the same time. Decide on one or the other, or be happy with your progress.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #7

This carb cycling business always puzzles me. My own feeling is that after working to stop metabolising glucose and persuade my muscles to go back to metabolising fat, it would seem odd to confuse them by making them switch back to glucose again.

Since so many people are promoting the idea, I’m wondering is what carb cycling is supposed to do for the body, and what data supports the notion. The only dietary studies I’ve seen haven’t switched between diets this way, so I guess I’m out of the loop. Anybody have a link to a study or two I can go read?

(Robert Hollinger) #8

I’m wondering too but I know a guy that was really big and he tried keto and it didn’t work for him but he switched to keto with carb cycling and he dropped over 200 pounds in less than a year. I don’t know exactly what he was doing but that’s what he told me.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #9

Bam ! This is the correct answer !

(Chris Holmes) #10

Based on everything I have read, most people doing Keto will hit a plataue, where the body gets smart, and says screw this lack of calories, and lowers the metabolism, so that your new TDEE is actually what was prviously your deficit. Once this happens, people who thing that they are eating a 500 calorie deficit, are actually eating at their current TDEE, which no longer is a deficit, thus the plateau. The carb cycling is supposed to trick your body into not resetting the metabolism. I guess the purpose of the whole post was that I was looking for guidance on how to break the plataeu, as the carb cycling is not really working for me. I am maintaining, but I still have a bt fat to lose in order to really make the midsection more defined.

(Susan) #11

I did 2 72 hour fasts (with a day of eating inbetween) and that broke my plateau.

(Chris Holmes) #12

I can try that, but the part I still do not understand, is that suppose somone started at 200lbs with a TDEE of 2500 cal, and set macros for a 500 cal deficit, so they were eating 2000 cal/day. They do well with their keto macros, and at 6 months they lose 30lbs, but then their metabolism resets their TDEE to 2000 cal. They continue hitting their macros but are no longer in a calorie deficit, so they do not lose any more weight. Then they introduce IF, or a single longer fast, then go back to their macros, they are still not eating at a deficit, so how do they continue to lose weight? In theory, after they lost that 30lbs in that first 6 months, they would reset their macros, but that is not going to have much more than a 100 calorie reduction to their macros, so they will still not be consuming near enough of a deficit for continued weight loss.

(Susan) #13

Maybe they become more active after losing weight, so are burning calories. I am sedentary, and can hardly move right now, but I need to be able to walk 2 hours a day in the fall of 2020, and will probably not have lost all my weight by then, but will certainly be doing way more exercise.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #14

Chris, but you do realize that you can crank up the amount of calories you need, by building muscle too, right ?
11 years ago (when eating mostly Paleo), I cut my daily cals down to 2000’ish, and lost 140 lbs of fat, in less than 1 year.
5 years later, I was breaking even at about 4500 cals a day… Granted, in those 5 years I had also put on 45 lbs of lean muscle. A bigger motor needs more fuel.

(Cancer Fighting Ketovore :)) #15

But the point is to not restrict calories, especially in the beginning. Let your body be your guide, and after fat adaption you can eat less fat, so you rely on your stored fat to make up the difference. You can also incorporate fasting, as others have said.

Keto is not about calorie restriction. It’s about learning to listen to your body.

As an example, my TDEE is estimated at 1700 (I did an RMR to get the #s) calories. I’ve been eating a lot of fat and hitting around 1800-2000 calories. By all rights I should be putting on weight from my starting of 125 (post-pregnancy), but I’ve lost around 10lbs over a year. I don’t skip on calories.

(Ken) #16

Keto while weight training is designed to do one thing. Preserve (Not gain) muscle while you lose fat. For well adapted people like you, it does require a caloric deficit. The carb cycling part still requires an overall 500 calorie a day deficit as per TKD. If you’re consuming more than that you can still slowly build muscle, but not gain fat. You can’t do both at the same time. The carb consumption part is to prevent metabolic slowdowns while still running a deficit.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #17

So if the body reacts to famine/caloric deficit by hanging on to its reserves, what is the best way to convince it that there is no famine?

Since this is the Ketogenic Forums, and since a large part of our advice is to eat to satiety, you have probably already figured out where I am going with this. The problem with what we call CICO, which is basically shorthand for “eat less, move more,” is that this is basically a recipe for stimulating constant hunger, which over time wears down the resistance, resulting in yo-yo dieting and bingeing. Better to eat in a way that gets the body’s hormones on our side instead of pitting them in opposition.

The challenge comes when the body’s idea of what a good composition is and our idea of what we want conflict. But even in such a case, the results are likely to be much more satisfying if we can work with our body instead of against it.

(Chris Holmes) #18

Thanks to all for the responses. Just about everything I have read points to the fact that even those who follow strict keto, have to be in a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. For me, being in ketosis, seemed to give me enough energy to continue to train in the gym, and consume calories at a deficit, while still feeling satiated. It was a perfect situation, until it wasn’t. After about 7 mos, I really did not seem to lose any more weight. Once I switched to carb cycling, the fact that my protein remains the same avery day, and is a lot (1g per lb of body weight), I have been able to drop a few more lbs, and maintain while building muscle. I have been pretty hapy overall with my results over the past 2 years, however the whole purpose of this post was to figure out what to do next, if I want to shave off say another 5lbs. I am not sure if my metabolism has slowed, or my TDE has gone down, or what, but was just looking for advice.

(Erin Macfarland ) #19

For your height you are on the low end of the “weight spectrum,” so I’m not sure why you want to lose more weight as opposed to focusing more on body composition? The body will fight quite hard against getting to a point where it will have to catabolize lean tissue in order to lower total body weight. Which is what would happen if you’re trying to lose weight. As others have pointed out, incorporating strength training can help preserve lean muscle tissue and it can promote insulin sensitivity. I would suggest doing strength exercises that focus on full body/functional strength movements with lower weight and higher reps or even just body weight rather than lifting heavy, like on a squat rack. I’m a personal trainer, and help people work on body comp in relation to their fitness goals. So using something like a TRX vs standing at a squat rack doing 400 lb deadlifts will promote keeping your weight at the lower end of the range for your height vs lifting heavier loads less frequently. And you’ll still maintain muscle mass, as well as building functional strength.

(Erin Macfarland ) #20

@PaulL what a great, thoughtful response…it’s very important to take the long view. And to realize we can only strong arm our bodies for so long before they rebel hard to get what they want.