Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

(GINA ) #448

I think the of the ways we have gotten ourselves (as a society) into this pickle is forgetting the nourishment of food. I think many times when people are hungry, their body is looking for some specific vitamin, mineral or macronutrient that it needs. If you feed it food in response to that hunger that doesn’t contain that need, it will just make you hungry again in a short amount of time, still trying to get that need met. In the meantime something has to be done with the food you did eat, so it gets shuttled off into fat. The cycle repeats.

Robert Lustig often talks about the children he sees in his practice that are grossly overweight but also show many classic signs of malnourishment. I am sure those kids get hungry because their bodies need nutrients, so they eat. The problem is that the food they eat don’t give them what they really needed, so it gets shuttled off into fat, then they are hungry again.

I know feel different kinds of hunger, I imagine it is my body’s way of guiding me to giving it the right sort of food. My grandmother, who was never overweight, rarely just said, ‘I’m hungry.’ She was always hungry for something. I think she was in tune to the nutrients and macros she needed.

(Polly) #449

I think what you are missing perhaps is the truth which I have discovered over half a century of dieting and that is that knowing your caloric intake is irrelevant. If you cut carbs to below 20g per day it does not matter what your caloric intake is if you rely on your inbuilt satiation feedback mechanisms. We are all fitted with satiation feedback mechanisms, but the effect of a high carb diet in some people is that it messes up the feed back loop and with hyper palatable (generally processed quasi-) foods in which fats and carbs are mixed we do not know when to stop. Once we have fixed our feedback loop (by restricting ingestion of carbs and in my case only eating real food) we can once again rely on our inbuilt mechanism. Counting calories is therefore pointless.

The other thing we need to be careful of is putting our body into caloric restriction in the way that the “guinea-pigs” were treated in the Minnesota Starvation Experiments of the 1940s. It is better to fast than limit caloric intake. We adapt well to feast and famine but function really badly on perpetual short rations.

Obviously, you can take which ever path seems best to you. I am in my sixties and many other folk on this forum are similar or older and have decades of experience of trying all sorts of dietary regime.

I am disappointed that this forum has lost your “respect” but notice that you seem to be a recent joiner and suspect that you never actually had much respect for the collective wisdom to be found here in the first place!

(Andy Mole) #450

If you’ve been dieting for half a century that alone suggests that you’re doing something wrong.

(Scott) #451

Funny, it has been about that long (mabey closer to 70 years) that the ideal way to lose weight has been “eat less, move more and reduce fat”. That advice combined with the rapid uptick in obesity and diabetes during that time should tell us something.

(Andy Mole) #452

More like the rapid rise in obesity and diabetes is down to the awful processed food and drink we all consume

#453

No, I like logic and truth. We need a calorie deficit to lose fat, the body doesn’t just throw away precious collected energy if there’s no need. It’s just very complicated. Not every eaten calorie is used up, our caloric need might wildly vary and we can’t calculate it. There are odd things in some individuals too.
Keto isn’t an automatic fat-loss diet for anyone with excess fat. Many of us need to ensure we don’t overeat and finding a good calorie limit might be the way. It’s the best if there are some other method that doesn’t involve tracking but sometimes it’s not possible or reliable. I actually combine the two as I can’t just limit my calories as many (most?) dieters. A good method that makes the calorie restriction automatic or very easy. I just want to be full and satiated all day while eating half as much as in my past days. Or being very active, that’s my best bet but I can’t seem to do it.

There are some interesting topics here. I get reminded how different people are.
Some people automatically eat about the same calories and get satiated the same, no matter their caloric need (or the type of food, something I am very sensitive to).
Some people easily eat a lot more when they feel nicely full and satiated (but their stomach capacity isn’t reached yet). But eating just until satiation might cause overeating too (easy satiation -> hunger later -> extra not small meal. And that’s a big problem in my case). Bad timing can ruin things too. So sometimes we should figure out what is the right thing to do and try to do that, not forcefully but still, making some conscious choices. Everyone makes conscious choices but some of us need to be more careful than others.

We need different approaches as we are different. What satiates us and how we can stop eating when we doesn’t need to eat, how reliable our hunger/satiation signs, these are individual. And subject to change as we ourselves (or our woe) change.

(John) #454

Just because you disagree with the opinion of one poster, there is no reason to lose respect for an entire forum. You will see in this same thread many opposing opinions posted as well.

(Scott) #455

Agreed but but since I switched to LCHF I have been able to ignore he amount of calories I eat. To say that only caloric deficit (via diet) is the only thing that matters to lose weight ignores hormonal influences. Also the bodies ability to waste/conserve energy or lower/raise metabolism are both able to happen and will affect the bodies ability to gain/reduce even when the exact same quantity of calories are consumed. Since you are new here (I think) @Andy_Mole check out the 2KD podcast "147 Sam Feltham the man who ate 6000 kCals/day and lost weighthttp://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=147
I think you may like it.

(Jack Bennett) #456

Yes, and the macronutrient composition of that processed food is very significant. The worst offenders are the starchy, sweet, rich foods that are highly pleasurable but not filling (high carb, high fat, minimal protein).

(Full Metal KETO AF) #457

I guess you’re totally wasting your time then, why not follow your instincts and quit reading here? You obviously can’t follow the facts and are stuck in CICO Land. If anyone’s post is idiotic it’s yours Andy. I have lost 60 lbs and all of that was when I ate more than what the notoriously inaccurate caloric needs from calculators said I should. Following them I stalled out for months.

Good luck to you in any case, don’t consider any new ideas since the ones that have caused failure for so many seem to be working a charm for you. :cowboy_hat_face:

#458

In eating disorders even painful overeating happens but we don’t need go that far.
I suspect people have different numbers of states of hunger/satiation and they obviously respond differently. I have very numerous states and 3 kinds of fullness/satiation (all are more satiated than “not hungry”). Nicely satiated (I love this and I usually am in this state on a good diet), fully satiated (still good and often unnecessary. I usually stops here if not before) and uncomfortably full (super rare for me, it’s clearly bad).
I like eating and barring some idiotic times, if I eat “too much”, I totally enjoy that, I don’t go over completely full and as long as my carbs stay low enough, it’s nice.
Overeating means eating above our energy need for me, that happens too and I feel the need for that but only very occasionally, my average is good (at least for maintenance). Overeating is no concern on keto for me as satiation comes easier, even full satiation and it turns off my appetite (only this, not the previous levels), no, it puts it into the negative so I definitely stop eating for long.
I imagine some people has only hunger and no hunger/satiated and they stop there.
And it’s only hunger, there’s appetite, habits and various mental things.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #459

I would consider that people with eating disorders need extra measures if they have no control about the amount of food they will force down past normal satiety. This is a psychological issue and not dietary. This has to do with something other than hunger. It’s emotional or hedonistic. Food choices and the amount of food prepared for a meal can help. If you don’t cook giant batches of food it removes some of the problem of eating past satiety for whatever reason you use to justify stuffing yourself. If you don’t make “Keto treats” you won’t have a such a strong eat for pleasure tendency. Giving up pleasure eating is the next step after giving up high carb foods in the evolution of your KETO changes. Don’t be greedy about food, it’s fuel not an amusement park. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #460

Some of us don’t have ‘normal’ satiety signals so we do what works. If whatever you’re doing does not work to move towards whatever your goal is, try something else. Don’t do the same thing over and over expecting different outcomes.

(Susan) #461

Agreed!!

I stalled for 2.5 months by Fasting tons and eating a large deficit -no losses at all --as soon as I increased my calories to 1800+ a day, the scale started moving again. Many of us on here can attest to this. I have only lost 52 pounds so far and I have over 100 more to go, but the days I eat enough, my body cooperates, when I don’t eat enough, I don’t lose weight, and sometimes even gained a l pound those days.

#462

It’s simpler Andy. Don’t be hungry.

Thanks for adding some spice.

(Jane) #463

:rofl:

You are a man with uncomplicated hormonal responses. May work for your gender but please don’t speak for mine.

TIA

#466

So, why not 3600 calories? Or 5400 calories? Or more?

In what ways was your body failing on the large deficit?

(Susan) #467

I don’t go over 2000 ever, but I know on 1000 or less, I wasn’t losing ever and even gaining at times. @David_Stilley was the one that got me back on track and helped me reset my Metabolism =).

#468

never fear on food portions, they are getting way smaller as the price goes up and up LOL

My 91 yr old mom (on no meds except low dose BP med and is walking fine and doing very well) said that she is ticked cause her Little Debbie Oatmeal Cookie thing got smaller and smaller and now they are weeney in size to her vs. the old days.

Maybe the economy will cure obesity? Even in a can, used to be 11 oz or whatever, the can of veg is now 9 oz and up in cost.

tongue in cheek post here LOL

#469

if we don’t count kcals, why is it always about kcals to everyone? what am I missing here?

wait, thought a bit…edited to say you guys are keto and track macros. so then it shows kcals on that tracking so you talk about them…is that right? :slight_smile:

I am Carnivore. We don’t track anything as a rule mostly. well they can and do for their personal info etc. but it is mostly just eat the meat and reap the benefits.