Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?

(Jane) #423

Amazing. What is your blood ketone level the day after eating a large pizza and sugary orange soda?

(Bunny) #424

Around 0.4 that’s pretty good for such a carby meal?

(Jane) #425

Not bad.

#426

I get no cravings from eating more micronutrient-rich root veg carbs or green apple carbs as a part of a well balanced meal with eggs or cheese and nut butter that further slow the carb journey.

But simpler carbs and esp straight sugar is very different - it goes straight to the blood real fast with no brakes, esp if your main meal was done 20-30 minutes previous and the stomach has cleared, and/or you’ve had wine w/ the meal.

Once I had decadent sugary flan pudding for a friend’s special event some 20 mins after the main meal - and noticed a huge high/low, then a definite spike in sugar interest the next day or two…

Another time I had homemade cocoa oversweetened with Stevia as an evening mug, and had a weird feeling, and light headache/hangover the next morning which caused me to steer clear of high doses of Stevia and consider alternative sweeteners for future hot chocolate creations including a brief longing for old-fashioned sugary hot choc - but it passed.

#427

Well, I’ve lost over 100lbs eating in a caloric deficit. Doing keto for the brainfuel. I’ll see myself out :sweat_smile::joy:

#428

Wonderfully presented and well put.

It took me well over 4 years to understand satiety. I rapidly understood about not feeling hungry on keto. But it all got confusing at that moment of deciding to eat. Overeating is very “In the now” type situation, at that time where eating is the prime directive and food is available. It’s then when signals can get mixed. Plus throw in the complicating confounder of cravings and the neurophysiology of carb addiction with its links to memory. Plus culture.

My parents were child refugees from war torn WW2 central Europe. They suffered and almost starved during and post war. They were disgusted at the thought that anyone would ever leave food on a plate.

It’s only in recent months where I can start eating a main meal, like a shared dinner, and enjoy all the mindful eating pleasures of food and the company at the meal, and get to a point where I stop eating and can not take another bite (but also do not feel physically, stuffed full). The healing happened.

#429

Bunny, did you do that test with a continuous glucose monitor? How was your blood glucose response?

You must be exquisitely insulin sensitive now to be able to remain in ketosis after that carbohydrate load.

How is your HOMA IR?

These are just questions out of curiosity. Plese don’t feel compelled to nswer them, if they re inappropriate.

(hottie turned hag) #430

Yep. And those folk, in the main, were eating carbs in “normal” amounts and all food in far LESSER amounts.

Even when I was growing up (I’m 56) the norm was 3 meals, a SMALL snack after school and nothing after dinner, adults nor kids.

I do think that “back then” eating from all food groups did not cause the issues it does “nowadays”. I don’t think carb consumption nor satiety signalling were problematic on a grand scale as they are today.

Reasons for this are myriad: more sedentary lifestyles, more processed/chem treated food, genetically mod food, MORE more more of all of it eaten per day, the pyramid, etc etc.

Growing up I can recall how few sets of parents were fat; on our block there were two Mothers named Frances, one was called “fat Frances” to distinguish her from normal sized Frances :grin:.

The Dads were all trim (even the white collar Dads who didn’t exercise), Mothers likewise, kids mostly skinny, fat kids you could count on one hand, they were made fun of mostly because they were so rare they seemed like freaks.

This was in an (at the time) almost 100% Italian 'hood where macaroni (we never called it pasta) and bread was eaten almost daily. Those of us who attended the parochial school -which had no lunchroom- walked home for lunch then back. TV was only at night, you played outside after school.

Point being carb consumption and satiety are not issues when one’s lifestyle is more correct.

(Bunny) #431

I have three different glucose monitors besides a ketone + glucose to monitor just for accuracy (two readings if the first two readings are < 0.5 mmol apart, or three readings if they are over 0.5 mmol apart) as I don’t have one of those fancy libres…lol

Glucose shoots up to 70 or 80 after a carby meal like that and sometimes over 100 but usually it is in the 50’s to 40’s even in the 30’s sometimes being that I don’t eat three meals a day, so my eating windows are pretty spontaneous and far apart!

But that is because I‘m more muscle (highly insulin sensitive) than fat so a big carby meal is a blip!

The resistant starch keeps my glucose numbers low!

If you starve your butyrate producing gut bugs the glucose goes on the incline? That’s when you have to rely on it from an external source?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #432

As I recall, we ate far less carbohydrate back then, and most especially far less sugar than today, and meat was a higher percentage of our diet. This was before Ancel Keys scared everyone about eating saturated fat, of course.

But it is worth noting that the diabetes epidemic in the U.S., documented first by Joslin at Mass General, began about 20 years after the candy industry got established in the 1860’s. There are also folks who see a strong correlation between the introduction of “vegetable” oils into the food market in the early 20th century and the beginnings of the heart disease epidemic, as well.

The correlation between ill-health and diets containing large amounts of plants begins before historical times. Archaeologists can tell, simply from looking at the bones, whether the population at a given site were hunters or farmers. Dr. Michael Eades has a fascinating lecture on the topic, using data from Egyptian mummies, and correlating it with their statuary and their written records. Recordings of several versions of the lecture are available on YouTube.

So the upshot is that carb consumption was indeed problematic even back when I was a kid (though we weren’t really aware of it), but you are right; satiety signalling was not problematic until we started basing our diet on carbohydrate instead of on meat.

It is worth remembering that, back in the days when Americans were considered the healthiest people on the planet, our diet consisted nearly exclusively of meat (documented by Teicholz in The Big Fat Surprise).

(hottie turned hag) #433

Yes, for sure as even in my examples of my 'hood, where carbs served at every meal, the portions were SO MUCH smaller! And dessert was a small portion, and sugary snacks after dinner while sat in front of TV was not heard of! I mean I never saw it happen in any house I was in as a kid. After school snacks weren’t a BAG of cookies or chips, it was maybe two cookies and a glass of full fat milk, or a peach, or an apple.

Chips were seen at parties, BBQs, as I recall…pastries and bakery cakes were a once per week thing on Sundays. Ditto for soda, I don’t recall ever being served soda with a meal as a child in my house nor anyone elses! Milk, usually was given to kids at meals.

Interesting to muse over how folks who grew up pre 1970s didn’t seem to need nor want to eat the MASSIVE quantities folks do today.

(Jane) #434

I concur.

My childhood eating habits were… bacon and eggs most mornings. Oatmeal or Cream of Wheat for diversity. Sodas were in 6 oz bottles and a RARE treat. No snacking. EVER.

Played outside until time to come in.

Food was fuel- nothing more.

(hottie turned hag) #435

It’s kinda fascinating how the sheer quantities folk consumed pre 1970 differed so to today. Multiple factors as to why I guess but fascinating nonetheless that in just a few decades eating habits could change so drastically :open_mouth:

Chickens were smaller, and one chicken fed the whole family, right? Dad maybe had two pieces and Mom and kids each had one. We could come up with many examples.

(Jane) #436

If you read the books on the processed food industry it all becomes clear.

Their quest for profits and the cutthroat competition amongst them drove the push to get people to eat more food in the form of snacking and to develop foods that stimulate the pleasure centers so we eat more at each meal and crave their foods.

From the insidious ad campaigns to infiltrating government agencies to influence dietary guidelines - its all about profits at the expense of our national health.

(Robert) #437

I want to say thank you — I think you might have saved my life with this post. Since I read it, three weeks ago, I’ve begun IF, watched every Fung video, and have lost over 15 lbs.

I’d been “doing keto” for years, but seeing the yo-yo pattern over and over. But I’d never been interested in checking out fasting because it sounded too extreme, too fringe. Your post, though, got me to start really considering it.

Timing is important, too. Just this year, there’s been a flurry of research publications and lay articles about IF in a Harvard publication, Men’s Health, and others. So maybe I was already primed and ready to try fasting.

Personally, I find that 23/1 or 20/4, beginning my fast at 7pm, works great. I feel genuinely hungry at the right time, and am not hungry throughout the night and day. I’ve also completely changed the way I eat. I used to continuously snack in between meals, which I no longer do. One additional positive effect: I’m saving a ton of money.

Again, thank you.

(Susan) #438

That is awesome, Robb =) Welcome to the forum =).

(Full Metal KETO AF) #439

@Robb_Shecter That’s so great Rob. I’m glad the discussion was helpful. :cowboy_hat_face::+1:

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #440

Welcome to the forum, Robb

(Jane Srygley) #441

@DeeCS I don’t see your original post, so I quoted the quote. I think the problem with what you said here is the “any given day” thing. You can certainly fast one day or do OMAD and eat like 1000 calories or so without an issue, but it is critical to return to your “normal” caloric intake or yes, your metabolism will start conserving energy. When you’re on a calorie restricted diet consistently, you’re telling your body, “This is all the food that’s out there,” so your body makes due with what’s available and slows down your metabolism. If you go back and forth between fasting and feasting, you’re telling your body, “There’s plenty of food on some days but not others,” and your body will adjust accordingly, but won’t slow down its metabolic rate. That’s how I understand what I read in The Obesity Code by Jason Fung :slight_smile:

(Jane Srygley) #442

This group inspired me to check out Dr. Fung too! I didn’t think fasting was possible for me but I made it through my first 24 hours and I was hooked :heart: