Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #331

Agreed. I think these discussions we have are always about how best to trigger the need for withdrawals. Some people always seem to argue that we must take control and use the lever of caloric restriction to dictate the process, whereas others of us argue that the body has mechanisms to take care of that, given the right types of foods.

It appears from a lot of the stuff I’ve been reading that the way things are intended to work is that fat should flow into adipose tissue as we eat and reach a limit, at which point we stop being hungry and stop eating. Then fat should start flowing out of adipose to supply energy steadily to the rest of the body, until the supply drops low enough to trigger hunger again.

It’s like a tank with a float valve that regulates the flow in and out. The key is that a high carbohydrate intake gums up the valve, preventing the signal that we’ve reached a high enough storage level. Under such conditions caloric restriction makes sense, because we are eating in such a way that we are preventing the automatic mechanisms from working. A low-carb/keto diet allows the valve to swing freely, making the mechanisms reliable again, in which case, trying to manipulate things only disrupts the mechanisms in other ways. But the habits we have learned from sixty years of high-carb eating are deeply ingrained and hard to shake. And people with agendas have spent a lot of time, energy, and money to inculcate those habits in us, and they don’t want to see us break free.


(Doug) #332

Agreed, Paul - there has to be homeostasis at work (rather than everything being topped off all the time).

No argument at all about “restricting.” Gad… I fasted for 6 days in 1983, young guy just trying it, was a massive carb-burner, not fat-adapted of course, and it was torture. The binge the followed was horrendous. “Restriction” diets - I never even lasted that long… :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I do wonder what really happens, even in the case of somebody with great insulin sensitivity and fat-adaptation. Some people appear to be able to eat a good bit more than normal, eating very low-carb, without gaining weight, at least for some time. Will they lose weight if they eat right at their expenditure, i.e will the body burn more just because it can?

There does seem to be the “weight set point” where the body wants to weigh a given amount. It can change over time, moving down or up (it certainly can go up :neutral_face:). I wonder if, all other things being equal and relatively ‘perfect,’ if the body has a genetic range which it rather tends toward - I’m picturing it being fairly lean, as often are the people found in isolation, eating ketogenically and with lots of food.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #333

I have an hypothesis in need of experiment to test. That is: keto normalizes all metabolic functions, including ultimate total body weight. Put simply, each of us has a ‘normal’ or ‘ideal’ weight towards which keto trends. If we are above that weight we will lose on keto; if below we will gain. Thank you Paul for suggesting a possible mechanism:

It appears from a lot of the stuff I’ve been reading that the way things are intended to work is that fat should flow into adipose tissue as we eat and reach a limit, at which point we stop being hungry and stop eating. Then fat should start flowing out of adipose to supply energy steadily to the rest of the body, until the supply drops low enough to trigger hunger again.


(Doug) #334

You read my mind, Michael. :smile:


(John) #335

I like this I just wish mine would trent to about 185. thats where i was for like 15 years and felt great at that weight. Unfortunately in my life long n=1 experiment my activity level went down and my weight went up.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #336

Give it time. :slightly_smiling_face: I think a lot of other normalization has to take place before the weight normalization finalizes. I never thought 144 pounds was anything special for me and in fact thought 160 pounds was ideal. Yet I’ve been at 144 +/- a couple pounds for the better part of a year now. This in spite of experimenting with ginger root and upping total calories to 2800 per day.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #337

I would tend to suspect a priori that excess fat would be a liability in a hunter, except possibly for the seasonal pre-winter fattening in temperate and arctic climes. Agriculture is too recent to have had much evolutionary effect, but I suspect that a farmer can tolerate a certain amount of extra fat without impaired effectiveness—a good thing, since eating carbohydrate does put on the weight!

Here’s Dr. Eades talking about the transition from hunting/gathering to agriculture:


#338

FWIW here are Dr Mike Israetel’s thoughts on high end/low end body fat levels for health VS aesthetics - he does make allowances for genetic outliers such as Deanna Mutzel appears to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcOaL9NM99g


#339

I will add my humble opinion, based on my experiences, my n=1. For simplicity’s sake, I will think of CI part of CICO as calories in, energy in, macronutrients in, etc. I believe that the amount of “in” does make a difference, but keto enables us to control that part a lot better and much easier than on SAD. I am from Europe, but SAD is a general term that applies to eating in EU as well, because the nutritional guidelines are the same. I think that the most important part of counting our macros, at least in the beginning, is that it familiarizes us with how much macros/calories/energy the food we eat actually has. We all underestimated the number of calories consumed (SAD and keto) and overestimated the number of calories we burned. I was IF before keto and let’s face it, we may call it fasting, but it is actually a calorie-restricting way of eating, because you just don’t shovel food down your throat all day long, it decreases the amount of food you eat and drink.

I have noticed that my husband and I eat a lot less than we used to before. I can see it on the amount of money we spend on food, what and the amount of food we cook and eat and the amount of money we spend and quantity of food eaten outside of my kitchen. For example: I was walking around Pula the other day, seeing tourists having breakfast, wandering around the open market, etc. and I remembered what I would have done before keto - I would have bought some pastries, some things savory, our fridge would be full of SAD food, then we would take a walk in the evening, have some icecream and continue on.
Keto drastically reduces our ability to consume the amount of food we ate eating SAD - we are limited by ingredients, restaurant options, and all the other junk, both “healthy” and actual junk, foods. We had no idea how much we actually ate until we started paying attention to the calories - you think you have one burger, but you actually had over 1000 kcal, followed by a dessert, add on some soda, a frappuccino and you ate more than the daily allowance in one meal. Before we had ribs drenched in sugar-loaded BBQ sauce, now we don’t have that anymore, we just have ribs - fewer macros we are ingesting.

I am not OVER-EATING on keto, I believe that I would gain weight if I over-shot my body’s daily allowance, and I definitely create a deficit by eating keto - I eat OMAD and the amount of food I eat is much, much less than before. Once our metabolism is healthy and our hormones are balanced, our body creates its own deficit. We are creating a deficit by decreasing the amounts of carbs we eat, directly and indirectly.

Do i feel like Im missing out on anything since going keto? No, because I feel so much better now, I can eat whatever I want, Ižm not riding the same rollercoaster we have all been on (trying to lose weight on SAD, hunger, over-exercising, etc). But it took me a lot of time to battle the psychological hunger and I think that I could easily over-eat on keto, if I start adding on sweeteners and ketofied SAD foods, nuts are something I cannot control and I think that any deviation from clean keto (eggs, meats, butter, EVOO, salad and green veggies) will cause problems. It is very easy for me to over-eat with dairy and ketofied foods that contain flours and/or sweeteners, my satiety signal goes wonky. Fat satiates me more than protein and I need to have “denser” meals to feel satisfied, but I consume a lot less food than on SAD and I only eat OMAD, because I am just not that hungry. So keto definitely reduces the amount of food/macros/energy I eat - from the list of ingredients to the lifestyle we now have (we cant consume about 90% of foods offered in restaurants and stores), hormonal balance and the nutritional knowledge we have now. You can all remember how much food we ate before, without lying to ourselves, that UK show “Secret Eaters” definitely applied to all of us.

I don’t know my body’s CO (i can estimate, but that number probably won’t tell me much), but I still think if I eat more than what my body spends, I will gain weight. Maybe somebody with a healthier metabolism won’t, but I would. This is why this test would be interesting - a clean OMAD keto for a month (eating to my satiety), increase the number of calories in with clean keto foods for the second month, back to “to-satiety” clean keto for the third month, followed the same experiment if I add in dairy and other ketofied items and see what my body does. I believe these palliative foods (dairy, ketofied items) will lead to over-eat and definitely gain some weight.


(Wendy) #340

Was looking for something to listen to this early morning, and came across Daisy’s series on calories. Here is Richard’s take on calories and calorie restriction.
https://ketowomanpodcast.com/richard-morris-talks-calories/
Enjoy!


#341

Do you maybe have a link for this? I would love to watch it.


(Doug) #342

Good discussion, Meerkatsandy. Eating less on keto is a common thing - I’ve seen so many people report that. I notice just how satisfying the food is, and how long that feeling lasts. I’ll make eggs and sausage, or steak and sauerkraut, and it’s the same for my wife, who has never eaten ketogenically - we’ll both be “full” for hours past the next “normal” mealtime.

While it’s easy to do that, I think there is often some leeway due to our body being somewhat adjustable, i.e. burning more if we eat more (especially when we keep insulin low). I remember a lot of 8000 calorie days when I should have been gaining 5 lbs. per week, and it only ended up being 5 lbs. per year. Still insulin-sensitive back then, I guess.

There’s usually a supertanker-like momentum to our metabolisms and hormonal regulation - things don’t change quickly. It takes a long time to mess things up and to fix them. I think back 40 years, to already having eaten enough for two meals, and then I boiled 6 or 8 big potatoes, cut them up and ate them - a huge bowl of food - with butter, salt and pepper. Then laid on my bed, painfully full, and still “hungry.” Carbohydrates --> massive insulin --> unsatisfying. My poor pancreas…


(Libby) #343

I was going to mention this “lag time” in weight gain, too. My weight gain was NOT linear. In fact, I was the weight I am now for a couple of years. It seems to be my body’s fave. Another weight I kept for a long time was 10 pounds less. And before that 10 pounds less. Looking back on it, I gained in 5 to10 pound increments, usually during periods of high stress. However, my eating habits were horrendous all through those years-- binging on pasta being one of the worst things I did. Too regularly. But it didn’t generally result in immediate weight gain. Seriously. It really does make me look more to the calories OUT side of things. Why didn’t the astounding amount of calories I ate send me to buy new pants every couple of weeks? They didn’t. Mystery.


(Doug) #344

Libby, one thing I’ve noticed is feeling hotter, having a sweaty pillow at night, etc., after eating a LOT. So there is some increased energy usage going on. Not nearly enough to account for everything, however.

Really, we’re frustratingly efficient at making heat and doing physical work. Back when I was a runner, I’d attempt to draw a mathematical balance, and it was depressing. Eat that hamburger? You’ll only have to run 5 miles to use that amount of energy. :neutral_face:


(Libby) #345

I’ve been told I don’t sweat too much, for a fat girl :grinning:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #346

@LibbyL That’s an old one! :joy::joy::grin:

I used to have night sweats before keto when I was fat. I usually slept on top of the blankets for a few hours before getting cold. I don’t do that at a lower body fat level anymore. :cowboy_hat_face:


#347

I agree, I could never put my fork down when it came to pasta and I was hungry after a few hours. My body was horrible on SAD…I just looked at a potato and I was 4 kg heavier.


(Doug) #348

I don’t think I will ever be free of thoughts/cravings for carbohydrates. I don’t remember being very young and eating, but certainly since age 10 or so - spaghetti, pizza, biscuits… I used to make a huge bowl of soup, like a mixing bowl, and dump 2 or 3 whole packs of saltine crackers into it, so 80 or 120 crackers.

When I’m full of keto food, I’m fine, it’s not any kind of a bothersome deal. When I’m hungry, however - it’s always there, lurking in the background. It’s good for me to talk about it - keep it at bay, keep it in its place. The mental/psychological aspects here control almost everything for me.


#349

I feel the same way, that is why I can’t have any snackable foods, such as nuts and other items I could just grab and eat - salty snacking was my issue before and it sneaks up on me. As longs as I keep keto plain and simple, I’m fine, but give me some nuts, olives, cheese…


#350

I’m not sure why you continue to misinterpret what people are saying, even after it’s been clarified for you. Repeatedly. People who insist that energy intake (aka, calories) is relevant are not saying that you must “count calories.” Energy intake is relevant whether or not you choose to track it. And it is relevant (people have been literally starving to death for millennia to prove it). But just because people are saying it is relevant (“matters”), does not mean we believe that it is the only thing or that it operates in a vacuum.

Keto isn’t magic. It is totally possibly to overeat on a keto diet. And if you do that, you will gain weight. It is also possible to maintain one’s weight on keto, while eating that way to address other health problems. If you agree that it is possible to maintain your weight on keto (as many people here are trying to do), then you must agree that something else must happen besides ketosis for someone to lose weight. That something is eating at an energy deficit so that your body seeks out your fat stores to make up the balance of it’s energy needs. The trick, of course, is understanding how that deficit works in conjunction with the other biological and chemical processes that happen in our bodies.