Can we please stop repeating the “You have to eat at a deficit to lose weight on KETO” lie?


(Mame) #128

great point. I was using satiety purely in the physical sense.

and as I said above it’s currently rare for my mind to be satisfied with my food either intake amount or type right now. at least not for more than an hour or two. I am in such a big food relationship transition right now my brain is very cranky. LOL

I know it will calm down again eventually.


(mole person) #129

Have you posted about this elsewhere? I’d like to hear more about it.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #130

This corresponds better with my own experience than simply ‘eat to satiety’. I am never particularly hungry nor particularly ‘satisfied’. I can always skip eating and frequently just forget to do so. I can always eat to the point of being so full nothing more would fit in my stomach. I also know from experience that if I eat 100-200 calories more/less than my daily target for 2-3 days I will gain/lose. This with no change to the composition or ratios of what I eat, just the difference in total calories.

I’m 74 years old, 6’0" height, weigh 144 pounds total with 13-14% body fat. I eat 2800 calories per day to maintain. I hit that target every day because I do not want to lose nor gain weight. It’s not an issue of ‘mind over body’ or ignoring 2 million years of evolution with some arbitrary number. That’s the number required to maintain my overall weight at my current level of activity.


#132

I think it depends on ur goals, lot of boxers for example crash diet to meet certain weight for a fight and dont mind weight rebound afterwards. If the goal is to try to keep metabolism as stable and healthy as possible and have more longterm plan, i agree one should eat clean keto till satiety and let ur body guide the ammounts you eat.

I dont know if my post was badly written or you just didnt understand, but this is what i think/ment:

If eating to satiety makes the whole metabolic needs met, then there would be no weight loss if all the energy comes from the food u eat. If some of the energy do come from fat storages and not from the food, theres a caloric/energy deficit in food intake side, but its okay cause ur body is comfortable with losing it, hence not triggering famine effect. This is what i ment with having “optimal deficit model that suits persons individualistic needs”, as a random (often app or calc generated) deficit in energy intake can easily trigger famine effect if it cuts calories/energy intake in food too much.

In my opinion thats only true to certain point. If i knew for sure my daily energy need was 3000kcal worth of food and i ate same food intentionally at 100 kcal deficit. I would more than likely be sated/full either way, but would that extra 100kcal come from fat storages or would my metabolic rate drop by 100kcal and score me no weight loss? In my opinion that easily falls in the range of where my body is comfortable taking 100 kcal worth of fat from storages and yet being in intentional intake deficit.

So what i believe is that there is unknown range of deficit for everybody, that will yeld them weight loss if found and used properly without triggering famine effect or otherwise drastically dropping bmr.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #133

This WOE isn’t a recent change for you, why do you think your relationship with unhealthy eating quantities is so ongoing? I was eating mindlessly a year ago and carb addicted since childhood. I believe there absolutely is a second level to conquer after getting off carbs and it’s pleasure based eating. I’m not talking spices here, but keto foods that imitate carb heavy foods. You can make anything fit into a keto diet but lots of foods while they may be okay as far as staying in ketosis given portions, get in the way of breaking eating for pleasure habits. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Failed) #135

I love this analogy! Food is not recreation, food is sustenance.


(Mame) #136

I think I speak to this somewhat in my accountability thread but as this is a keto forum so I may not mention it much I guess. I don’t want to derail discussions, just because I have habits of mind fueled eating doesn’t mean it’s interesting to others.

No it’s not recent, LC since 2002… I wouldn’t say the relationship is ongoing but it cycles due to STRESS or life events or certain holidays or anniversaries of deaths of loved ones.
I think there are two reason why I am still deal with it. One it is learned childhood behavior. Most of us certainly me were rewarded and comforted with food. They are old habits and when tired or stressed and not aware I can fall back into them so easily. My dad’s unspoken motto was ‘food is love’ and my mom’s was ‘food is freedom from pain’.
Also I have a lot of identity wrapped up in being a foodie, a good cook… this is part of my transition. tweaking these parts of my identity towards some none food stuff. (food – so quick, so easy, so everywhere in our lives/culture)

Although I use very few keto substitutes and only occasionally (just because that is what serves me best) I don’t have an issue with eating for pleasure, as long as I am physically hungry. For me that is the key. I remind myself that it will taste even better if I am truly body hungry. (oh and stopping when I am physically full is what I am working on the most right now) I have very little carb cravings even mentally.

This takes awareness and energy on my part and I do it imperfectly for sure. However as I do it more and more it will become my new habit. (my urge jar post from some previous thread) My brain will rewire. (reading neuroscience is one of my favorite hobbies)

I think many people don’t need to get to a ‘second level’ as you say. Some people especially if they are younger or not foodies or don’t have that much weight to lose or … can simply change what and when they eat and have success. Even long term. Perhaps they never liked sweets or many carbs to begin with or don’t need to lose that much… I on the other hand started out at 300-ish pounds, lost 120, (which was awesome but still a good 50 too heavy for me) let 40# or so come back due to healthy carb creep, but kept of 80-ish off for 10+ years. However grad school + work -> business -> distraction -> lack of awareness on my part effected my weight in a gaining way.

So last year I recommitted to doing what works for me (vlc=keto) and ever since then it’s been a journey of learning (less veg, dairy ok, more fasting etc.) and increasing awareness of what is going on in my head. Kind of combining my meditating practice with my eating habits that I want/need to change…

It’s pretty specific to me, much like my eating plan. I think many who are stuck need to figure out what works for them and trust themselves. But that doesn’t mean it is an easy thing to do.

Hmm, I don’t mean to say I am the only emotional or habitual eater here, it’s just not the real focus of this forum…

LOL, you may now get why I don’t go into it that much.


(mole person) #137

This is what I need to work on. I do feel I’m getting closer though with every slip and recovery. I’m starting to really actually believe that it’s not worth it rather than just mouthing those words.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #138

Mark, IMP experience, the “I worked out so I can eat more” thing is not cr@p, but total truth !
11 years ago, I lost about 130 lbs of fat, mostly with diet alone, in about 8 months, and that was before I started working out.
At that point I was eating around 2000 cals a day. For me, being skinny felt good for about 1 day.

So then I started working out… And after 6 months, like a freaking madman. Within 1-2 years, I was eating 4500 cals a day just to break even ! That was expensive :open_mouth:
But the worst thing about that period of my life, was that it didn’t matter how much I ate, I was always freaking starving !

Still, after 5 years of that, I felt like freaking Superman.
What all of this taught me is, diet is easy. Working out 6 or 7 days a week, both resistance and cardio, is very hard, but ultimately, extremely rewarding.

Now, if I could only get myself to take that first step again… Only this time on the Keto diet, instead of a modified Paleo…
Think I will at least stay more satiated, plus maybe finally be able to go below 10% BF. Best I did was 229lbs @ 11%BF


(Doug) #139

I think they’re both pretty dang hard… :neutral_face: :smile:


(Robert C) #140

sets you up for having to keep working out this way to keep the benefits.

Just as dropping 500 to 1000 calories a day keeps you having to stay to low (on the nutrients actually coming in) to keep metabolism at a reasonable level.

Follow the hormones, not the calories.

Sorry, this was @FishChris response within @OldDoug reply.


(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #141

Well maybe, kinda, sorta…
I do believe it takes less working out to maintain strength and muscle mass, than it does to develop it in the first place. Only thing is, I wasn’t trying to just maintain it. I always wanted more, and if it were not for my back injury, I’d have probably gained a bit more by now (5 years later)

BTW, when I say I was working out 6-7 days a week, for one, my weightlifting was only 5 days, and always alternating muscle groups, and I also spent even more time climbing mountains with 40 lb pack. I considered my hikes to be workouts too. Many days I lifted weights, then went and stormed up and down a 1000 ft hill near my home afterwards. Or, I’d do a 5 to 8 hrs hike on the weekends.


(John) #142

I do believe that calorie deficit is a factor and no you wont change my mind because of my own n=1. That said I also agree that for some just eating to satiety works for them just not me. When I go deficit i lose weight. when i dont then i dont. that simple. So I do have the question that if you always eat to satiety and it is all the fat that your body needs. Why would it ever need to burn fat from your body? Im sorry but to me it means even though you supposedly ate to satiety it wasnt enough and your body burns from within. to the op i can tell you that if i only ate 1500 cal i would probly go in starvation mode. even 1800-2000 cal is low for me. i seem to do good between 2000 and 2500 depending on the day at work. I guess all that i am saying is that maybe we can both be right. your way works for you and mine works for me so I dont think anybody should say for sure not to count calories. After all we are suposed to be tracking everything else right.


#143

But two doctors on a medical report on national radio just told me that by eating less that causes weight loss. But more so, the ketogenic diet causes weight loss due to eating less and creating an energy deficit.

These people have medical degrees.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #144

@FrankoBear I don’t even need to pull that link up because from the preview I can tell it’s anti keto :poop:. That article is from about 7 years ago, and a doctor’s degree doesn’t mean you aren’t a total idiot, from my experience and how ignorant doctors made me ill and botch surgeries. If you truly believe this drivel why are your eating a ketogenic diet? :roll_eyes:Starve on brother!


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir) #145

It’s not a lie. It’s just irrelevant because your body will “create the deficit” by ramping up the metabolism if your insulinemia is brought under control in an energy-abundant state (such as while being obese and on a ketogenic diet).


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir) #146

Here’s what I think is going on at the macro level.

Your body’s metabolic system is an advanced hybrid fuel cell, not a stove.

If there’s no fuel coming in, it will slow down operations to conserve the onboard stores, but keep them fast enough that you can still hunt.

If there’s fuel coming in, but not enough, and it’s low-fat instead of high-fat, it will also slow down operations, even more so than if there was just no fuel coming in (because if there’s not enough fuel coming in, and it’s mostly protein and/or carbs, that’s going to put the system in “store up for a rainy day” mode WHILE the rainy day is happening). It could also waste down muscle, because it doesn’t want to burn a lot of energy while in a fuel crisis.

If there’s fuel coming in, but not enough, and it’s high-fat, and you have fat on you, the low insulin that eating not enough but mostly fat causes will cause you to fill out the remainder of the fat with body fat, because high-fat is, evolutionarily, interpreted as not a famine, and so this energy stuck to us is now completely spare and we can burn it.


(Full Metal KETO AF) #147

@barns The reason my calculated caloric amount is what it is has to do with me. Amputee, sedentary for medical reasons, I don’t do physical work, I am 60 years old. I put my data in Cronometer and it calculated my BMR estimate from that data and my weight, maintenance was 1800 calories. A 20% deficit was recommended for moderate weight loss. 1500ish. When I got rid of the deficit and started eating more I started losing weight again at an accelerated rate. Who best knows what my BMR is and caloric needs are on a day to day basis? I have no idea actually. But following a recommendation for a deficit wasn’t helpful, and I was maintaining and felt good, just really slow weight loss eating whole keto foods. And most people who’ve been around the block with KETO accept that the CICO model is a lie. And you won’t be convincing me otherwise either. I’m sure I will continue to learn, and my eating habits will evolve as I continue.

So how do you estimate you need so many calories? Just by how you feel? And maybe you are way bigger than I am. And you mention how hard you work being a factor. So you need more food on work days or your day off after a physical day. Understandable. And when you cut is it across the board or do you just cut fat? I definitely agree on the dial back fat concept to burn fat. Could you be eating excess and when you decide to lose cutting back to what you should be eating?Might that be your deficit?

Looking at calories as a generic term for food is very inaccurate. A calorie isn’t just a calorie, you might need or crave more protein sometimes and not find it as attractive other days. Or you might crave fats another day. Maybe the same caloric amount for each but metabolised by different pathways and utilised in different ways, wasting energy from one and less from another. Extra fat, higher breath ketones wasting fuel instead of “burning” it. Too many factors for us to waste time counting a useless unit of heat crom physics and trying to apply that information in a useful way with a biological life form is human arrogance, something from a false model pushed down our throats for decades. A miss understanding of how biology works.

It’s like I put this gas in the tank and I can go 400 miles because a mileage calculator says I can, ignoring factors like terrain, wind, road conditions, traffic and countless other things to bung up those estimates.

:cowboy_hat_face:


(Ellenor Bjornsdottir) #148

Since you say you’re an amputee, is it appropriate to say “I apologise for your loss”?


#149

It is not anti-keto. It doesn’t read as pro-keto, either. It is presented as a moderate point of view (except for the allusion to keto being akin to #fakenews in its, keto WOE, proponents’ abdication of the status quo). It is purportedly factual keto using a scientific meta analysis of randomised control trials examining the ketogenic diet. It is an eye wash for people who might be deep in ketosis. A check point to see what is floating down the mainstream.

David, as one seeking to disabuse a creeping keto norm of engulfing and incorporating the calorie in and calories out theory of nutritional energy metabolism*, possibly seeking to encourage thinking outside of the norm, I have trouble in hiding my disappointment in that you would not even give a listen to the two main stream doctors and their facts about this keto diet trend.

The scientific paper is from 2019. But I see it already has a thread in the forums here: The Ketogenic Diet for Obesity and Diabetes—Enthusiasm Outpaces Evidence

It just wiggled it’s way into Australian media a month later.

*As Professor Ben Bikman proposes in this discussion ( yes, I understand I am using an appeal to authority argument again): http://2ketodudes.com/show.aspx?episode=160