Can someone tell me if my thoughts are correct on CICO

(Scott) #362

Sorry to disappoint but missed any paper that went against your view on this. I guess what I was saying is if keto had some slight advantage in aiding the removal of fat or the storage of it vs caloric deficit which could do the same, what’s the difference? We can all agree that people can and have succeeded on both. I also said I would likely be dead before the research would be in but this can be our wrestling with the pig in shit moment…after awhile you realise the pig enjoys it. No offense because we are both the pigs at this moment.

(Running from stupidity) #363

:bacon::bacon::bacon::bacon::bacon:

(Scott) #364

Hell yeah its bacon time!

(Scott) #365

And I can eat as much as I want because of keto magic!

Ignore me, it’s just the liquor talking now.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #366

I mean, the Dudes have one primary dogmata: “Show me the science.”

When you deny the laws of physics, you kind of lose the argument. Calories matter. I’m not trolling. I’m fed up with people who think you can drink liquid butter endlessly and lose fat. Doesn’t work.

(Scott) #367

I drink scotch to so it’s not just the butter.

#368

I’m by no means a physicist but isn’t thermodynamics kept in place in CICO when CO alters to match calories in? As in someone with a BMR of 2000 calories sticks to eating 1000 calories for a couple months. The body first reacts by releasing some excess weight but then reacts by lowering its overall energy output for the long term, decreasing its BMR down to 1000. First Law is upheld, physics isn’t broken, but now your metabolism is shot.

#369

Well the gloating over your perceived moment of triumph does come across a bit trolly.

(Running from stupidity) #370

Unlike, say, being able to see past the one little point you’re hanging onto in order to keep fighting with everyone who is able to see a bigger picture. Your ability to decontextualise and quote out of context is bloody impressive, I’ll give you that.

I’m fed up

Could you just go away, then? Please?

with people who think you can drink liquid butter endlessly and lose fat.

“You can drink liquid butter endlessly and lose fat,” IS the same as “Simplistic physics laws for a closed system don’t work exactly as you’d expect in a complex open system with many other variables no matter how hard you ignore them and the science supporting them.”

I mean, I read that here all the time, that liquid butter diet stuff.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #371

You mean the moment where the guys who think keto is magical admitted that they think the laws of physics break down when you eat low carb?

Yeah, I gloated.

(Doug) #372

Yes - I’d say there never is really any “magic” at work. For most of us, our bodies are frustratingly efficient and thrifty when it comes to energy. :smile:

While I don’t think we’d observe the full 1000 calorie reduction in BMR with a 1000 calorie cut in intake for 2 months, at some point the body does start “turning down the thermostat.” Bummer. :neutral_face:

(Running from stupidity) #373

Only in your simplistic little bubble. Just because complex things are complex and include self-adjusting variables doesn’t make them wrong, whether you (or anyone else) can understand them or not.

(John) #374

Cool part is if you don’t eat anything at all, you can lift like 4 tons while running 60 miles an hour because your body becomes a small nuclear reactor and generates its energy from direct nuclear fusion.

It’s where superheroes come from - people who have fasted for like 3 years straight, and they go from fat adapted to cold-fusion adapted.

I love all this sciency stuff. I lost 10 pounds since this thread was started, it has been that helpful!

(Scott) #375

This kind of reminds me of one of my sons. He is very intellectual but very liberal to the point of being socialist. Me I am conservative and we enjoy trying to make our point knowing we will never win over the other. We enjoy it but other around us hate it to the point of tears. He has a new love that fell into that category and she shut him down. I was okay after that.

(Scott) #376

That’s how I felt running uphill fasted this morning at 4:30 am you nailed it!

(Empress of the Unexpected) #377

I ate one meal a day for the last few days and lost three pounds. If I start eating to appetite tomorrow, even keto, will gain five to seven pounds over the week, The more I eat, the more I weigh. The secret to weight loss on keto is reduced appetite - which equals fewer calories. No appetite - no eating - weight loss.

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #378

Bless you, @Regina.

Honestly, I’ve had some time watching the cricket from my little apartment in NYC to cool off and think about this.

This topic is one of the reasons I get so many supportive PMs from people. People get really put off by the unscientific dogma hurled at them that doesn’t even align with what the revered names of keto themselves say. One of those dogmata is thrown at newbies all the time, so I made a fairly popular thread about it: newbies will arrive here and ask why they’re not losing weight on keto and they’re told to “eat more fat,” which is precisely the opposite of what westman, phinney, volek and others would say (in most cases). (Just search for “stop telling newbies to eat more fat” for that thread.)

It is telling that we reached a point in this thread where some people admitted that they don’t believe the laws of physics apply when it comes to keto. This is exactly what I suspected all along: that some people mistakenly think keto works by magic. And it’s the root cause of a lot of bad advice given to people around here.

I consider eliciting this admission an achievement. It is very important that these mistaken ideas — which are widespread in the increasingly mainstream keto community — are unveiled.

Nowhere does Taubes or Westman or Teicholz or Attia or any low carb researcher or physician ever argue some of the misconceptions that seem to dominate forums like this one.

It is critical that people understand that these dogma are not part of the low carb scientific literature (of which I have read carefully many dozens of papers). These dogma can lead to errors — like the fallacy that you can eat as much as you feel like eating as long as you’re in ketosis. This is just false.

I understand that my style of argument is strident. I come from the U Chicago school of thought: I will push and push until the truth emerges. Contrary to what others have said above, for me it has little to do with ego, even though I do like a good argument! I’ve freely admitted when I’ve been wrong in the past and in other threads.

I’m not wrong here. And I think it’s very clear that in this thread we’ve had an important breakthrough. I’m sure the magical thinking will continue on this forum but I think this is truly a first, at least for me — and if you believe in physics and science and basic scientific principles, it’s worth paying attention to what happened here today in this thread.

I thank the OP for asking his or her question and I am very pleased this debate has seen the light of day, heated as it has gotten. I thank all of you, including the people with whom I disagree, for helping, in some small way, to get at the truth.

(Running from stupidity) #379

If you SERIOUSLY think that’s what happened (and the number of times you’ve posted about it, I suspect you really do), you need to seek professional help. I’m being deadly serious here. Yes, you’ve trolling and so on, but if you genuinely think that’s what you’ve managed to achieve, you do really need to seek professional help. Go and find a professional to talk to about things.

#380

I have to say that I am gobsmacked if that is genuinely your takeaway from this thread. Speechless.

(Todd) #381

I think that a good answer to this question might me that in general carries do matter, but that metabolic and hormanal processes are complex and, so, under certain conditions they might matter much less if at all.

Jason Wittrock posted a 21 day challenge on You Tube last year where he went for 21 days consuming 200% of his daily caloric limit with no change to his workout or exercise regime. By the end he had lost fat mass and gained muscle mass as shown on his DEXA scan, with either a +2 or -2 pound overall weight gain/loss (I can’t recall which).

It isn’t easy to be categorical about processes that we don’t yet understand well, and keto may have different results than non-keto in this regard.