Can someone tell me if my thoughts are correct on CICO

[PaulL]

Fortunately, the solution actually is within our control anyway, but just in a different sort of way. That’s what I love about this way of eating (well, that and the vast quantities of bacon!) . . .

[akirby83]

This thread was about cico and at the end of the day he still gained on all 3 test

But he lost fat mass in the LCHF experiment. There is no way to explain this by CICO.

Don’t get me wrong, it makes perfect sense if we use CICO to mean “total energy in and out of the system”. Sam ate more, and he burned more. CICO upheld.

But this is not what people mean by CICO. It should not be possible to do isocaloric overfeeding experiments and get completely different results.

[gabe]

It seems to me the most pro-CICO posters are usually young men who are not heavily overwieght, who decide to try keto to cut weight, it works, and that’s basically their whole experience with obesity and weight loss. Many of us have been on the merry-go-round for a LONG time. And the reason we react so strongly against CICO is that it is inaccurate and also IMO harmful.

For heaven’s sake, nobody here is "pro-CICO."

We’re all low carbers.

Those of us saying that “calories matter” are not saying that you should count calories. We are simple repeating the SCIENCE. We are repeating what Phinney and Westman and others have EXPLICITLY STATED: “calories matter, but you don’t need to count calories.” (Westman) Phinney himself on the Virta website has a graph that shows that, for most people, your dietary fat intake will be MUCH lower then 70% if you’re obese and losing weight. Because your body will be freed up to burn its own body fat, because by reducing carbs, you’ve taken your foot off the hormonal gas pedal. Which is why you’re losing weight.

Who ON THIS THREAD has stated they can stuff their bellies full of fat and never gain weight because calories do not matter.

Several posts in the thread above have argued exactly this. And it’s all across this forum. The whole reason why we’re even having this argument is that there are people on these forums who truly believe that calories are absolutely irrelevant and that you could drink carton after carton of HWC and never gain weight. It’s simply not [spoiler]fucking[/spoiler] true. And that’s because calories matter, because calories are just a measure of energy and energy in matters, because keto isn’t magic. It’s just a way to get your body to get back into hormonal homeostasis.

[OldDoug]

And probably the reason many react strongly in favor of CICO is not wanting to release the blame and personal responsibility aspect of obesity. It must be laziness and gluttony and lack of self control that caused it! Fat people did this to themselves and they should not be let off the hook for it in any way.

Good post, TNorth. Yes - and I’ve even seen that feeling from obese people themselves - rather a “misery loves company” thing.

I think a lot of us who have been obese or overweight know that there are contributions we have made to that. Sure, we have overconsumed. The question we are focused on is not the what, but the why.

And a lot of us have done CICO-style dieting. There is a reason we are in keto land and not still CICO land. For those of us with really broken metabolisms, CICO doesn’t give the results you’d expect based on what all the books say will definitely happen.

I’d say we’re all “in CICO land,” as the energy does have to go somewhere. The original poster asked "Is the reason they (calories) really don’t matter …‘because higher insulin and more fat storage,’ (paraphrasing, there). This is why they DO matter - we get fatter/gain weight because we are storing calories as fat.

People on this forum can’t help but be immediately exposed to the fact that this process is hormonally mediated, and that insulin resistance is or has been a factor for a vast majority of us, and that it’s getting to be a factor for a large portion of people on earth.

It seems to me the most pro-CICO posters are usually young men who are not heavily overweight, who decide to try keto to cut weight, it works, and that’s basically their whole experience with obesity and weight loss.

I was pretty dismissive of heavy people through my teens and 20s. 30 years after that, I’d gained 150 lbs, status as a Type 2 diabetic, and the knowledge that things are often not as the most over-simplified used of CICO would assert.

I’d say, “Hey, let’s not kid ourselves - of course hormonal concerns can be a huge influence.”

I’d also say, “Hey, let’s not kid ourselves - there really is not a significant amount of people on this forum saying that’s not true.” The impetus for ketogenic eating is mostly predicated on it.

[Rclause]

Most of the time I have been in this CICO argument it becomes a splitting of hairs and moving goal posts. So let me start with yes I agree that Keto is not a license to freely over consume fat calories and magically lose weight. I also think the law of thermogenics is an oversimplification of a very complex system (not closed). The body can manipulate how the energy is stored or burned via hormones, body temperature and metabolism. Heck some calories pass straight through. Keto seems to have some advantages over a straight calorie deficit. This is where the non keto crowd insists that you only lose weight because keto caused you to eat fewer calories so CICO worked again and there are other ways to reduce calories besides keto. I counted calories to deficit and lost 50 pounds while running 30+ miles a week. I hated it and when I was sick of counting I started gaining. I injured my ankle and stopped running. I was managing my portions but gradually put on 30 pounds. I stumbled upon Keto and without calorie counting or forced restriction I have lost 25 pounds. To me it feels completely different and no longer believe any old calorie is just like any other calorie.

[Janie]

Several posts in the thread above have argued exactly this.

No they have not said anything like that ON THIS THREAD. You are exaggerating to try to prove a point.

[gabe]

No they have not said anything like that ON THIS THREAD. You are exaggerating to try to prove a point.

No I’m not, and I’m not going to do the work for you. Scroll up and read. There are loads of posts with people saying calories don’t matter, I can eat thousands of calories a day and my body will just figure out how to dispose of it. It’s in this thread and ALL OVER the forums. It’s the biggest disservice to newbies and to people who are stalled, and it happens ALL THE TIME.

[anon2571578]

For me calories are irrelevant because when I eat nutrient-dense Keto/Carnivore food, my body won’t let me overeat. Sit me in front of a table with two options and tell me I can eat all the steak I want or all the fries I want, and my body will know when to cut off the steak sooner than it will the fries. I acknowledge that some people are so metabolically deranged that they have no choice but to religiously track what they eat in order to lose weight, but I think most newbies should try not counting calories. From what I’ve observed, for most people it’s just a giant stressor, and that can’t be helpful for weight-loss. And since CICO has done more harm than good for long-term weight-loss, with it’s consistent victim-blaming and lack of getting to the root cause of people’s weight problems, people should spend more time repairing the relationship they have with their bodies and satiety signal than obsessing about eating 200 calories more than what Carb Manager suggested.

[Janie]

There are loads of posts with people saying calories don’t matter, I can eat thousands of calories a day and my body will just figure out how to dispose of it.

There you go changing your argument again! You said people are claiming they can fill their bellies full of fat and not gain weight because calories do not matter. Nope. Not on this thread.

Whatever - I’ve made my point and going to mute this thread. Have fun arguing with a fence post!

[TNorth]

I’d say we’re all “in CICO land,” as the energy does have to go somewhere. The original poster asked "Is the reason they (calories) really don’t matter …‘because higher insulin and more fat storage,’ (paraphrasing, there). This is why they DO matter - we get fatter/gain weight because we are storing calories as fat.

I think we can all agree that this convo has gone way beyond the original question, haha! I definitely agree that calories in and out matter, but as shorthand for a philosophy of weight loss that does not include taking complex biochemical responses into account I don’t like it.

[juice]

I think we can all agree that this convo has gone way beyond the original question, haha! I definitely agree that calories in and out matter, but as shorthand for a philosophy of weight loss that does not include taking complex biochemical responses into account I don’t like it.

[TNorth]

Those of us saying that “calories matter” are not saying that you should count calories.

I’m not entirely sure of your stance in this conversation then. Seems a bit like going around in circles.

[OldDoug]

I think we can all agree that this convo has gone way beyond the original question, haha!

Somewhat, I guess. Yet so much of it seems to be people talking past each other or verging onto logical fallacies. How in the world did we get to over 300 posts?

I definitely agree that calories in and out matter, but as shorthand for a philosophy of weight loss that does not include taking complex biochemical responses into account I don’t like it.

If somebody asserts that all calories are necessarily equal, I’d argue with them as strongly as anyone. Few if any approach it that way on this forum, however. The action of insulin alone means that it’s not the philosophy of weight loss. Sure, the body is a complicated deal, but for most of us it’s pretty simple - if calories are coming out of storage, or not going into storage, we’re happy.

I’m used to online arguments that are necessarily subjective. The ‘CICO’ realm is much more hard science, and it amazes me how much of a bugbear it is here.

[gabe]

I’m not entirely sure of your stance in this conversation then. Seems a bit like going around in circles.

Dr Eric Westman: "Well, I think calories matter. The energy balance equation where we talk about energy in… calories in, calories out isn’t a good construct to help guide people… It’s more complicated than counting the calories on a label, for example.

"Because the calories are handled differently depending on what type of calorie it is, based on the metabolism for that individual calorie. But I think that it’s pretty clear that when people are losing weight, they are eating fewer calories than they were before."

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/calories

This is all we’re saying. That Dr Westman, and every other “keto” scientist out there, is right. Calories matter. They are relevant.

There are people in the keto community – and unfortunately that includes these forums – who think that calories do not matter, and that somehow keto induces a kind of magic in the body whereby you can feed it thousands of fat calories and the body will magically find a way to continue losing weight. It don’t work that way.

[MarkGossage]

Ok calories matter… but don’t bother counting them… so they don’t matter really… seems to be what Dr Westman is saying… and you wonder why people can’t understand what you mean…
Also “calories” from different food types appear to be treated differently by the body so maybe you need to start talking about carb calories, fat calories and protein calories as distinct entities (which by the way is what I think Dr Westman means) then you may be in a better position to say which calories do matter?

[cw2001]

Dr Eric Westman: "But I think that it’s pretty clear that when people are losing weight, they are eating fewer calories than they were before."

This is all we’re saying. That Dr Westman, and every other “keto” scientist out there, is right. Calories matter. They are relevant.

Note that Dr. Westman doesn’t say people are losing weight because they’re eating fewer calories. He understands that correlation does NOT equal causation. That’s Science 101.

[gabe]

Ok calories matter… but don’t bother counting them… so they don’t matter really… seems to be what Dr Westman is saying… and you wonder why people can’t understand what you mean…

Note that Dr. Westman doesn’t say people are losing weight because they’re eating fewer calories. He understands that correlation does NOT equal causation. That’s Science 101.

I find it interesting that the dogma in this community is so strong that people go to great lengths to literally read the reverse of what the experts say. Westman literally says “calories matter” and “calories count” and “if you’re losing weight, you’re consuming fewer calories than you’re burning.” And yet there’s such fear of this word, “calories,” that people are willing to quite literally ignore what the very people who popularitzed keto say.

You guys can keep thinking that keto is magic. Fine by me. But don’t come to the forums wondering why you’re on a years-long stall while your “ketogenic” diet includes bulletproof coffees and a stick of butter drenching every omelette. That’s all I ask!

[MarkGossage]

What I’m saying is I don’t think you have explained your point of view very clearly… and as Dr Westman says the type of calories you consume make more of a difference than the absolute number maybe? Which maybe why we like the magic effect of fat calories being somehow less than carb calories.
Hence why I think the distinction should be made. Are you talking about a unit of measurement or food?
If a unit of measurement then these aren’t consumed anyway as we don’t eat units of measurement. We eat food so be specific.

[cw2001]

I find it interesting that the dogma in this community is so strong that people go to great lengths to literally read the reverse of what the experts say. Westman literally says “calories matter” and “calories count” and “if you’re losing weight, you’re consuming fewer calories than you’re burning.” And yet there’s such fear of this word, “calories,” that people are willing to quite literally ignore what the very people who popularitzed keto say.

You guys can keep thinking that keto is magic. Fine by me. But don’t come to the forums wondering why you’re on a years-long stall while your “ketogenic” diet includes bulletproof coffees and a stick of butter drenching every omelette. That’s all I ask!

I haven’t read the reverse of what Dr. Westman said. He did NOT say “You have to eat fewer calories in order to lose weight.” He DID say that when people are losing weight, they’re eating fewer calories than they did before. You might not get it, but those are NOT the same statements and they don’t mean the same thing. Again, causation vs correlation.

I don’t think anyone here thinks keto is magic. But neither are we unwilling to see that the primary factor of weight loss is NOT the calorie. That’s why Dr. Westman and others say that counting is not needed. They say that because they believe that if the focus is on satiety, low carbs, added fat, etc, the body eventually regulates itself.

I don’t think you understand the damage you potentially do when you keep stressing the calorie. Some of the people who are drinking bullet proof coffees and eating an excess amount of butter might be doing so because they NEED the adjustment time. They need time to get the CICO dogma out of their head so they can start listening to their own satiety signals instead of “eating to a number.” They perhaps first need all that extra fat so they can actually have a metabolism that’s working decently…and then as satiety signals work, lose weight later.

I’ve asked this before and I haven’t seen an answer, but how many times have you lost and re-gained weight? Has losing weight with keto been your first real weight loss?

[gabe]

I don’t think you understand the damage you potentially do when you keep stressing the calorie.

I am sorry you are triggered by the word “calorie,” which you don’t seem to mind Eric Westman uttering but apparently when I do it you need a safe space. A calorie is a unit of energy.

What’s hilarious is that you aren’t even really arguing with me. You don’t disagree with me on anything. I don’t disagree with you. We agree. On the science. You’re just triggered by my stating basic scientific facts.

I’ve asked this before and I haven’t seen an answer, but how many times have you lost and re-gained weight? Has losing weight with keto been your first real weight loss?

I don’t think this has any relevance to the topic of whether calories are units of energy or whether ketogenic diets induce some sort of magical ability whereby the body mysteriously finds a way of disposing of calories as long as they are consumed as fat, which you seem to believe. I decline to answer, and I doubt you could guess what the answer was.