Can I not count the carbs in certain vegetables?


#21

I make a muffin or a pizza base (nothing like a pizza base but nice with the toppings) with the flax. I have to agree with you, as nice as it is, it doesn’t satisfy hunger at all!


(Full Metal KETO AF) #22

Eat more protein Gillybean!


#23

I will! But is there a limit or can I really just eat fat and protein until I’m full. I’m definitely going to try and count carbs only but is it possible to eat too much fat and protein and really mess things up? I’m assuming that I will be full and therefore will not eat too much fat/protein (Sorry, still getting my head around this after years of dieting and it’s hard to let go…:rage:)


(Full Metal KETO AF) #24

At the beginning especially it’s much more important to limit carbs and not worry about the others. I really recommend the keto is easy link. Lots of people have used this kind of keto and been successful. As you become settled into keto and get better at burning fat your appetite will begin to self regulate if you go by hunger signals. You will be less hungry and unless you’re a habitual eater who stuffs themselves at mealtime you’ll naturally eat less. Right now it’s much more important to give your body the message that it’s got plenty of food and there isn’t a food shortage (calorie restriction). Then later when you dial back a bit on fat your body will be happy burning it’s own for energy. I understand it’s against what you have believed in the past. Crbs cause weight gain, excessive fat for days on end will cause weight gain. Protein in excess not so much. There are some who might disagree with me here, but you have to eat fat to lose fat. And there’s a lot of protein controversy in keto.

:cowboy_hat_face:


#25

Thanks @David_Stilley. This has all been so helpful! I am definitely going to follow the keto is easy link. The other thing that I think will help me is to not weigh myself every single day. If I haven’t lost or indeed if I have gained, my natural instinct is to cut all my macros which has the opposite effect of what I am trying to achieve and I end up going round in a vicious circle! Here’s to starting over…:slight_smile:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #26

I wish you the best Gilly, and look forward to seeing you around the forum. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Carl Keller) #27

What’s worked for me are meals featuring a fatty protein along with a cup of two of buttered vegetables or the occasional salad. Sticking to things like broccoli, cauliflower, snow peas, green beans and brussels sprouts means that I’m usually around 15 net carbs per day. Some days I don’t bother with the vegetables and I don’t feel like I am missing out on anything.

My primary focus is meat because that’s what I crave, that’s what fills me up the quickest and keeps me content the longest. Vegetables truly are an afterthought.


#28

Carbs aren’t merely just carbs. Whether they are processed or ultra-processed or whole foods matters enormously for many physiologies and microbiomes in terms of insulin spiking and gut health. There is plenty of common-sense and increasing evidence that ultra-processed carbs behave very differently than merely refined foods, and the whole food non-starchy carbs behave very differently than modern grains. The kind of carbs you eat does affect fat gain and longevity:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/05/16/723693839/its-not-just-salt-sugar-fat-study-finds-ultra-processed-foods-drive-weight-gain

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(19)30248-7

Also, humans aren’t merely humans - people have different degrees of metabolic health and dietary/toxicity histories. Someone with a history of grazing and soda/junk food addiction is gonna have more severe rehab/detox needs, etc.

Non-starchy veg carbs (and some fruit carbs) are fiber, which mostly is not metabolized - it scrubs the gut which is helpful for detox, keeps the body’s energy being used via digestion, and feeds the good bacteria in the large intestine (info that has only recently been more understood).

You’ll find that there is a range of carb limits in the induction and second phase periods (pre-maintenance) of both the well-formulated Atkins diet as well as the LCHF Protein Power/Drs. Eades protocols and the Phinney & Volek protocols. Ranging from 20-30< total (Atkins induction and phase II) to <50-75g net (around 75g-150g total depending on type of carbs, according to the Drs. Eades and Phinney & Volek) and even higher for maintenance without a desire to lose more fat. Also varying in metabolic flex according to whether you’re doing mitochondria-enhancing slow strength-training or intense endurance athletics - and what your stress/cortisol levels are.

Most non-IR folks and many pre-diabetics do very well advancing through the phasing parameters of the aforementioned keto physicians, all of whom increase carbs in Phase II, and the “New Atkins Diet book” cowritten by Phinney & Volek and Dr. Westman definitely involves veg (though carbs are not a necessity, many food-lovers enjoy spices and diverse veggies and low carb fruits for taste and pleasure).

Phinney & Volek and the Drs. Eades allow for abundant veg and some fruit per day, and even wine and chocolate. :grapes: :chocolate_bar: That being the case, as a non-diabetic non-obese person I personally stopped counting non-starchy veg after my first couple weeks of LCHF/keto (as well as most of the fibrous fruit carbs from an apple or pear a few times a week, as only small amounts are left at the end of the digestive tract according to Dr. Robert Lustig and my own progress indicates that it true for me). I’ve had steady, measurable, impressive body recomposition fat loss despite being a 50+ year old female - which is all the proof I need that this way of eating works for me as a gourmet foodie who also wants to lose excess fat and have a vital old age.

Your own study and self-experimentation will show you how you’re doing if you are 100% fat-adapted. I recommend using a measuring tape once a month to get the proof you need - and avoiding the scale as much as possible, because LCHF/keto is also about restoring healthy lean muscle and bone density weight.


#29

Feel free to buy some and try, pretty sure my glucose and ketone meter aren’t part of a conspiracy to lie to me. https://mtsnutrition.com/products/mts-machine-carb-10-2lb-unflavored no shortage of keto’rs that lift heavy are using different products containing Carb10. If it screwed with my sugars / ketones / A1C I wouldn’t be using it. But since using it I’ve regained the perks of lifting with carbs with none of the downsides of them.


(Jane- Old Inky Crone) #30

Hi @Gillybean,

I am a 59 year old woman (about to be 60) who had total hysterectomy at 35, and who has dieted off and on most of my adult life. I started back on Keto after a year long binge on March 6th of this year. I was 151 at the beginning, now 131 and want to get at least down 6 more pounds. I only really count carbs, and sometimes not very closely either. I make sure I’m in ketosis and that my blood sugar is good with a Keto Mojo. Occasionally I fast for varying amounts of time. This past week I fasted for 60 hours from Sunday to Wednesday. Sometimes only 24 or 48 hours. I can do that because I eat tons of good fats and meat when I’m eating, and rarely eat much else. This keeps me full and satisfied. At this point I rarely get really hungry, even when I’ve been fasting for a couple of days. I’m still losing weight, and my body is recomposing like mad! I believe we can do this without policing every bite we put in our mouths, the weight might come off a little slower, but we don’t have to be hungry anymore in order to lose weight!


(Full Metal KETO AF) #31

And then again lots of people lose it reintegrating carbs and end up where they started. That’s why there’s so much hype about the non sustainable nature of keto. I may have oversimplified with the carbs are carbs statement, some are worse than others I definitely agree. But in the context of the thread I stand by my statement that keeping under 20 is the way to go. I don’t care if it’s from sweet potatoes or white sugar and flour, or cauliflower and broccoli. The effect on getting into ketosis is going to be the same. That’s why I said that. And yes some people can get away with more carbs. But it isn’t recommended to experiment with that as a person just starting keto, I don’t care about eating fruits, drinking wine or eating higher carb vegetables personally. I’m doing just fine without getting my insides scrubbed with fruit. I eat up to a cup of fermented raw vegetables daily and fresh greens too. I think I’m clean as a whistle. I only do berries very rarely and the same with nuts. I have no intention to “transition” to more carbs. I go up towards 30g. sometimes but don’t feel any need to do this daily ever. I do respect your choices as your own. My results speak for me, 42 lbs. lost in 9 months, recversed pre diabetic diagnosis and my goal weight 10 lbs away. :cowboy_hat_face:


#32

I wouldn’t say lots of people, I’d say, more specifically, lots of people with longterm food addiction issues and tendencies towards processed and ultra-processed foods.

There’s a huge difference between IR and non IR folks, fat-adapted foodies and fat-adapted food addicts. I’m much more interested in applying the actual successful research by keto physicians myself - as well as insights from paleopathology. The Drs. Eades also had tremendous clinical success with IR folks with increased food diversity.

Do what works for you - that’s not being debated. Being informed about what the cornerstone LCHF keto physicians have researched and clinically tested out and making informed choices based on such is what’s interesting to me and of value in terms of community education.


#33

I can’t nail down the ingredient they’re using, and there’s a seemingly bogus link to some study on their website you linked above called Ziegenfuss, T.M., et. al. The effects of Carb10TM on serum osmolality, concentrations of glucose and insulin, and gastric emptying time: A pilot study. The Center for Applied Health Sciences
I can’t find that with Google.

[…a pilot study. Unpublished. 2014 ]

They also state “Carb10™ provides 82% lower insulin response and 27% lower blood-sugar response than maltodextrin.” HERE It seems like the reason you’re not seeing a glucose spike is because your workout is demanding enough to suck up the extra glucose into muscles. As a former maltodextrin+whey user (pre-keto!) I’d like to know exactly what the ingredients are and how they’ve been processed.

There is a substance called superstarch that’s been written about, so I’m curious if they are using the same thing. https://peterattiamd.com/introduction-to-superstarch-part-i/


#34

I’ve assumed they’re probably the exact same thing, I actually found out about Carb10 while researching SuperStarch after hearing about it on a podcast. It’s made from peas but they patented it so who knows exactly how but it’s WAY cheaper than superstarch so I gave it a go when I saw that MTS had some as I’ve had good luck with their products in the past. Whether I’m not noticing a difference because of immediate uptake or not I without question feel like I’m working out with carbs again. You using maltodextrin in the past you know that’s not a mistakable feeling having loaded glycogen in there especially post workout. Haven’t had any issues with weight loss and when I did check ketones they were always normal for me.

The Ingredients on the tub are:

Legume-based starch derived from piscum sativum (peas) (as Carb10), Silicone Dioxide, Sucralose, Salt, Cellulose.


#35

Yeah, I can respect that they want to keep some trade secrets about how they alter it. I can see it might have its uses for certain segments of the keto community who severely burn through muscle glycogen doing crazy intense training or events.


(Bunny) #36

A tiny amount, for me that’s perfection (une petite quantité)! Not worth counting!


#37

I just decided this morning that I am going to try this too @idunno. I had some great advice from @David_Stilley a few weeks ago to read the Keto is this easy post however I kept logging everything I ate (on my fitness pal) telling myself that I was only tracking carbs but I found myself, yesterday, not eating after a meal even though I was still hungry because I am still terrified of going over my supposed macros. I even found myself logging what I wanted to eat and then juggling with it so I didn’t go over those macros. I realise how ridiculous I’m being! Sorry @David_Stilley, I tried to take your advice but All these years of low fat, CICO diets are deeply ingrained…:rage:. So here goes (just going to record carbs with paper and pen :smile:) .


(Allie) #38

I’m guessing it’s Ucan Superstarch you’re taking?

https://www.generationucan.com/superstarch/


#39

Oops, I meant to post this in idunno’s keto without logging data post :slight_smile:


#40

Nope, I’m familiar with that though, heard about how amazing it was I think on Chris Kressers podcast… then I saw the price!

This is what I use https://www.tigerfitness.com/products/mts-nutrition-machine-carb-10 it’s somehow made from peas. The Carb10 portion isn’t made by MTS, some other companies have it as well but typically most of the time it’s in things geared to gain weight. This is the only one I’ve found that’s standalone.