Calories in, calories out argument

(Jeanne Wagner) #5

Thanks Stan, and I feel really great about doing it. I just wish I had found out about the Keto WOE 12 years ago when I researched diabetes after I was diagnosed. I mean I searched the crud out of diabetes treatment and cures, and nothing along the lines of keto ever came up. Not even Atkins. I think that is a good indicator that the information has been suppressed.

In any case, although he is looking at diet and nutrition with blinders on, and blindly following the advise of a Dr. nutritionist, he is otherwise reasonable. I know it doesn’t sound like it. He is getting according to him ‘amazing’ results over this performance diet the nutritionist has him on… so he’s a faithful follower of that advice. You know Keto is too hard to follow, too restrictive, you may get temporary results but then it stalls and you gain it all back and then some… a dangerous diet. You should just eat what you want in moderation and exercise a lot, and you’ll be fine.

(Olivia) #6

I’m against trying to convert people actively but rather want to lead by example or at least show that you can eat this way sensibly, without hindrances, whilst performing at maximum capacity. Nutrition is such a personal and emotional journey, which makes rational debate almost impossible. You can’t reason somebody out of a belief. But you can show friends and family that you’re thriving with your way of eating and hope they’ll be inspired by your success.

(Adam Kirby) #7

People didn’t suddenly lose their willpower 40 years ago. Or did they? What was different back then? BTW people had much less of a knowledge of calories in the past.

(Michelle) #8

Here is a great article with some science thrown in there about CICO!

(Richard Hanson) #9

Hi Jeanne,

You are clearly week minded. :wink:

CICO matter, but not nearly as much as the type of calories you are eating. It is very easy to blame fat people for being fat. It was very easy to blame myself for being fat, it is just an issue of character, it is only a matter of being lazy and stuffing my face. Just ask you doctor, almost all doctors, who are forced to either blame you or themselves.

Why then does giving insulin to an otherwise health person predictable result in weight gain when maintaining the same food intake?

What makes you insulin resistant? How about insulin?

I am very weak minded. Mrs. Hanson just has to wiggle in a certain way and my IQ drops by at least 30 points. Ooopss … i did not need to confess that.

When I was eating carbs I would be stuffed, to the point of significant discomfort, and still starving. I would hate myself, I would literally think … I am killing myself, and I still felt hunger. You are a most very impressive woman if you can control your hunger by the force of your mind. I certainly can’t, but I can control my hunger to a very great extent by simply not eating carbs. I now eat less total net carbs in a year, about 10 lb a year, then most people eat sugar in a month.

Go home … turn a burner on your stove to high … let it get hot and then press your hand to the burner. If you can’t hold it there for more then 60 seconds … are you weak minded? I think not. Also, this is just a thought experiment.

Any unpleasant stimulus is going to eventually result in an action. It is just a matter of time. A person can resist for a while, but everyone will eventually act and the more intense the stimulus the shorter the time to act.

So … do different people have different levels of willpower, or are different people more sensitive to pain, experience more intense hunger?

You are clearly weak minded! :wink:
You have no self-control! :wink:

How about … you are a wonderfully sensitive person instead!

That is my honest no BS opinion. The hard thing is to tell yourself just that, and to truly believe that truth after a lifetime of almost everyone, including your doctors, telling you just the opposite. Jerks!

Keto for Life!

Warmest Regards,
Richard

(CharleyD) #10

That’s just how I would define a low-fat CICO diet by a guideline-following dietician these days, interesting.

He’s happy in his belief that anyone fat is guilty of Gluttony and Sloth it sounds. It’s ok, most doctors, nutritionists and dieticians also think this way (see Good Calories, Bad Calories for the whole story). It’s the NORMAL way of thinking. I’m just glad you and I rebelled from normal :slight_smile:

All things CICO - back from the dead thread
(Sarah ) #11

I just watched a good video of a surprisingly relevant tslk by Dr Phinney. https://youtu.be/_evJd_iZZzs

(Rob) #12

The big problem here is that CICO DOES work!!!*

*it works for metabolically healthy people who are insulin sensitive and it works for everyone IN THE SHORT TERM (see the Biggest Loser folks). After that all bets are off but glib, smug cross fitters don’t have more than a short term view - ‘when’s my next session!!!’ :crazy_face:

While he has a point that insulin resistance is ‘our fault’ in an abstract sense, given the preponderance of authoritative advice to eat more carbs and less fat and (as you said) carbs have a highly differential effect on your body, makes it in reality, NOT our fault.

OR - Basically tell him the 1970’s called and wants its nutritional advice back!

(Stan Brooks) #13

But we will take their action movies!

(Rob) #14

I agree… but I’m struggling to think of too many (I am more a child of 80’s action - the big 4 - Stalone, Schwarzenegger, Willis, Gibson).

The Eastwood action oeuvre started in the 70’s… French Connection… very early Stalone Nighthawks) and Arnie, I guess… what am I missing? If we include ‘modern’ Sci-Fi/space opera then we have Star Wars and Star Trek TMP…

Now 70’s political thrillers… the joys of living in a paranoid time! :grin:

(Stan Brooks) #15

Sperico. Death Wish are the two that pop straight to my head

(Rob) #16

Good call… I am embarrassed to say I’ve never seen Serpico :flushed: I will!

Death Wish was on the list of movies I wasn’t allowed to see as a young child (unsurprisingly) so when I did get to see it, the shock value was largely gone.

#17

People who do Crossfit don’t get to make statements like that. Tell him to pick up some weight without running at it full speed first and then having the strength left to put it down instead of throwing it while running away.

BOOM!

Your not going to get through, those heads are too thick, I know my brother is a former bodybuilder BUT if you want to MAYBE grab his attention ask him what he does during his winter bulking, they eat nothing but carbs, ask him WHY they put on all their weight eating chicken and brown rice and oatmeal all day, they’re not eating fat, so where is it coming from! They ask him how all those carbs give him that energy, then remind him that it all converts to glucose. Then ask him why bodybuilders shoot insulin with their “supplements” to bulk faster? Then ask him how you eat during a cut, you’ll notice real fast it’s very low carb. You gotta glue pieces together that he’ll identify with, but still expect to fail.

(KetoCowboy) #18

I follow a youtube channel called OMAD Revolution that–predictably–advocates eating one meal a day.
Oddly, the guy who runs the channel insists that it works only because of caloric restriction and has no meaningful impact on insulin.
When challenged on this, he becomes angry and says stuff like “It’s all about calories in and calories out because it just is.”
I think a lot of people have spent so many years struggling under a false paradigm that changing it means essentially repudiating their own personal history.
No one wants a cherished belief that has driven behavior for decades to be falsified, so maybe the best resolution possible is to celebrate the positive outcome your friend is able to achieve despite his failure to understand the role of hormones in weight loss.
I think OMAD Revolution guy is wrong about why it’s working for him, but hey–it’s def working.
So is it really worth arguing over?

(Liz ) #19

I am genetically predisposed to be insulin resistant, it runs in my family. I think they are saying 8 in 10 have the potential to be IR? Someone correct me if I’m misremembering that.

I also am a recovering carb addict. Yes, that’s a real thing:

So my addiction triggered the insulin resistance that was cued up to happen if I ate too many carbs, which I did, for years.

I knew I was an addict from childhood & tried to quit sugar time and time again my entire life with no lasting success, I’m 48.

Atkins saved me in 2003 but I slid back with Paleo a few years ago and Keto is saving me now. I have to be a tee totaler or my addiction is right there, ready to take over my life again. And it’s no small issue, it changes my behavior, ruins my relationships, just like drugs or alcohol addiction.

So, good on folks who don’t have these experiences, lucky them. Sorry they lack imagination or empathy to understand not everyone is wired the same. I’m glad you found Keto because I think it’s going to save your life, too.

(Jeanne Wagner) #20

Thanks! I had no idea what they do to bulk up. He has claimed with his Dr. nutritionist ‘wizard’ he’s lost 15 lbs and his performance has been better than ever. And this is very recent within the last 2-3 weeks for him. And what he does is eat only when he’s hungry. That’s about it.

I was hoping to explain the whole insulin resistance thing so he understood that CICO wasn’t as simple as he thinks. But yeah, he’s just stuck on why people get IR to begin with (i.e. fork to mouth).

(Michael ) #21

The equation varies from person to person but in general, elevated insulin levels prevent fat burning. So, the question is with calories out defined. People want to bring up thermodynamics, but if you investigate what “calories out” means, the equation gets more complicated than the CICO zealots would lead you to believe. I can restrict calories in to 1000 a day of sugar distributed through six meals. My insulin levels will remain elevated throughout the day and make it impossible to access fat storage (insulin resistance will cause even higher levels for longer). So, the result is feeling cold and weak all day…not to mention hungry. I’m running on sugar and mostly leaving fat alone. Thermodynamic laws aren’t being violated; my body is using the calories in to fuel the body…but not very well. Alternatively, when i keep insulin low through IF and avoiding carbs, my body heat and energy levels run high. This doesn’t mean I can eat 20k calories a day (protein spikes insulin too) but I feel better, move more and can lose weight with more calorie wiggle room than carbs.

I should add that this is my theory of how it works based on personal experience and the writing of Dr Fung and others from the evil insulin camp. My personal opinion is that higher levels of insulin resistance negatively impacts the effectiveness of keto and takes time to heal. This is why some people have to aggressively monitor calories on keto whilst others get away with calorie murder.

The problem most people have is being scale focused and impatient. They complain that they haven’t lost enough weight in 2 weeks on keto. A better way of looking at it IMO, is getting on board for the long haul and reaping the health benefits. I think that if you investigate people who have done keto long term, they’re likely more metabolic healthy and get away with more calories and are more active.

So, stop worrying about weight and start focusing on health. Don’t lose weight to get healthy, get healthy to lose weight. I guarantee nobody that takes shortcuts and loses 10 pounds a week will stay that way for a lifetime. It’s a journey, not a race

(Jeanne Wagner) #22

Thank you Mike. I have to agree with your logic. :slight_smile: Not that it took a lot of convincing, you know… But I love to hear explanations of things. It makes me understand things better and I feel like I can just make it part of me more.

I think my favorite part of what you said was don’t lose weight to get healthy, get healthy to lose weight. It is so true.

(Sjur Gjøstein Karevoll) #23

I agree with your post, but I just feel I need to point out that just as energy balance in the human body is more complicated than just thermodynamics, so too is insulin’s role in weight gain more complicated than that it decreases fat burning.

It is generally true that insulin prevents fat burning, but it also increases carb burning and does so proportionally to the amount of calories available from carbs. Insulin also won’t prevent fat burning in the absence of carbs, it takes both insulin and available glucose to stop fat burning, meaning that high insulin from insulin resistance won’t prevent fat burning unless you’re also eating carbs (if this wasn’t true keto would kill people with advanced IR/T2DM).

it gets really complicated once you dig into it, and I think part of both the complication and the confusion is that there are multiple causes of obesity so you can’t just look for a single culprit. Insulin resistance plays a huge role in obesity, yet there are fat people who aren’t insulin resistant, and there are insulin resistant people who aren’t fat.

I also can’t emphasize your last paragraph enough. Focusing on weight is very often the wrong thing to do. If you become healthy it is much easier to get to a healthy weight than if you ignore your health or possibly even actively harm yourself in an attempt to slim down. There are also way too many people who have turned weight loss into some totem project they can hoist all their other life problems on, and believe that once they’ve reached their “goal weight” their life will magically fix itself and they’ll live happily ever after.

(Duncan Kerridge) #24

Perhaps you could point out that the founder of CrossFit advocates a low carb diet : https://www.crossfit.com/foundation

‘As noted by CrossFit founder Greg Glassman, the CrossFit stimulus—constantly varied high-intensity functional movement coupled with a diet of meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar—can prevent the cause of 70 percent of deaths in the United States.’