Calculating protein from lean mass

(mole person) #21

Don’t be stressed. This doesn’t have to be complicated. There are lots of people here with lots of experience that can help with pretty much any problem or concern you have from sorting out macros, to getting over stalls when they happen, right down to meal ideas and even recipes!

Why don’t you tell us a bit more about yourself. How long have you been on keto? What have you been doing so far?

If you are just starting then it’s pretty simple. Just keep your carbs below 20 net grams, eat a decent but not excessive amount of protein. Sixty grams sounds about right but you don’t have to worry too much about an exact hit every day. It’s alright to be a bit over some days and a bit under others. And fill up the rest of your hunger with fat. Try to have fat in every meal so you remain satiated. But you don’t need to try and hit your fat macro if you aren’t hungry for more.

That’s it really, overall. The main thing is keep carbs low and learn this way of eating at the beginning. Do that for at least six weeks and get fat adapted. After that you can look at dialing in on macros if you aren’t losing much fat yet. But the first six weeks really shouldn’t be so much about losing fat as allowing your body to adapt to a new way of eating. For many people this will mean eating a bit more at first. That’s ok, your body is adapting. Just keep the carbs very low and use fat to fill you up when you get hungry and you will do great.

If at any point you have ANY questions or concerns, just post here. There is a ton of experience over a huge range of issues related to this way of eating.

I’m very sorry that the nutritional orthodoxy has let you down so badly but do not stress. You can heal on this diet and if you stay with it you needn’t fear amputation or other complications of diabetes.

(mole person) #22

Here is the study.

A LIMIT ON THE ENERGY TRANSFER RATE FROM THE HUMAN FAT STORE IN HYPOPHAGIA – ALPERT (2005)

file:///C:/Users/pc/Downloads/For%20Zen.pdf

There are several points which make it clear to me that the value of 31.5 calories per pound may be massively inaccurate for people on a ketogenic diet.

First of all the data used in the model they developed is taken from the Minisota starvation experiment. This was a population of fit young men placed into semi-starvation for 24 weeks such that they lost about 2/3 of their fat mass in that time. They were being fed a diet meant to approximate the diet in wartime Europe at the time of potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread, and macaroni. The diet was so severe that the participants reported all sorts of psychological and physiological problems during that time.

Second there were only two measurements other that the original baseline of the fat mass of the participants, one at 12 weeks and one at 24. This seems problematic to me for extrapolating to a population that is not stressed by starvation. By 12 weeks the participants had already loss HALF their fat mass, and these were originally fit men, so they did not have huge body fat stores.

Finally the authors themselves say quite correctly that:

We do not know the individual variability of the maximum transfer factor or whether or not it can be applied to other populations under different conditions.

Honestly, I see no reason to assume that it can. Fat transfer rates might be very, very different when the body is not stressed by a need for it’s own calorie stores while under a high insulin load.

(Chris) #23

I think that PDF is still on your hard drive… :slight_smile:

(Robert C) #24

Thanks for the nail in the coffin on the 31.5 calories per pound body fat maximal extraction rate theory (in my mind anyway).

Not only is it inaccurate for keto, it seems like it would be wildly inaccurate for very active keto people (you, 100 mile runners, CrossFit athletes etc.).

As well, now we know that low calorie intake is what causes metabolic problems (and I guess the potential for the body to try to conserve fat) vs. 0 calorie intake, which causes positive fasting adaptations. So, taking a bunch of people, breaking their metabolisms and then inferring maximal rates of fat utilization (or calories burned or body temperature or heart rate … ) seems like it would produce pretty useless information (i.e. I do not care how my broken metabolism works).

I would love to see a study on maximal body fat usage on 2 groups of keto people - both keto (per 2KD) but one sedentary and one with a fairly aggressive workout plan. Many people seem to do fine on keto and are sedentary but I wonder if exercise accelerates fat loss or accelerates fat loss but leads to a higher or lower plateau or confounds fat loss because 100 calories spent running gives you a desire to eat 200 calories of food.

Anyway - thanks for the explanation of the contents and (as @Dread1840 pointed out) the file is not accessible.

(mole person) #25

Lol… I’m an idiot. I thought I’d copied the link correctly. I’ll try again.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/attachments/for-zen-pdf.15733/&ved=2ahUKEwiYs_CFgongAhVYHDQIHcEUBzoQFjACegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0GnU2SKzdSBQqU-IBbIUSE

(mole person) #26

To my mind too. I’ve always been a bit suspicious of it, but applying it yesterday to myself (thanks to that questioning post of yours), made me nearly certain that it had to be broken.

#27

@richard
No, I am not calorie counting just trying to calculate the optimum nutritionally I can get from the least insulinogenic foods in between intensive fasting, to continue reversing diabetes and insulin resistance and to avoid cancer progressing. Had surgery a week ago and don’t have pathology tests back but am quite motivated (by fear) to get specific about my diet following the general anaesthetic and enthusiastic attention of the surgeon.
Because the calculations for best protein numbers vary so widely I am attempting to nail down anything I can.
It is seeming impossible. I have been carnivore (between fasts) for ages now and would like to start eating fewer grams of protein if I can ever figure out how few is not too few.
It seems like an impossible task to locate anything conclusive since all the experts’ numbers for fat and protein differ so much.
I’m currently confused by how to integrate Valter Longo’s information in The Longevity Diet regarding animal protein and fats being in such variance with the standard keto info re saturated fat, meat etc. since I am eating carnivore exclusively.

(Robert C) #28

@Brenda’s posts (linked below - there are several more in that thread) show that you might want to pick 0.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight as a minimum. She also does EFs and was at that 0.6 level while being able to add lots of lean body mass.

#29

Thank you kindly @RobC.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #30

By the way guys,

At the introduction of the 2ketoDudes podcast, Carl Franklin does indeed state that he eats protein at the rate of one to one and a half grams per kilogram of lean body mass.