Building a Stronger Keto Athlete Using Fasting/IF/TKD

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bodycomposition
powerlifting
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(Josh Stanisch) #1

Hey there everyone,

So here is the deal. I am going to use this thread as a little journal to help myself. I plan to update it pretty frequently which means if I pose questions hopefully someone will read it and maybe be able to help me!

Background

  • I have never read or done anything on forums before but I have been an athlete/lifter for over a decade now. I only began looking into forums because I recently partook in the old “Velocity Diet” create by Chris Shugart as a way to cut some weight for a silly “weight-loss” comp I did in solidarity with my wife.
    -4 sport athlete, Collegiate/Minor League Baseball Player, turned powerlifter/strongman. Became a S&C/Performance Coach myself (NASM CPT, NASM CE, Pn1, FRC, NSCS CSCS, etc).
    -I did use the Ketogenic Diet in the past. Nearly 4 years ago in 2017 I used it to cut weight for the summer for about 5 months. Looking back at pics of that year I was the leanest I think I had ever been. My back was cut as ■■■■■ my abs were popping, I had veins, all that good stuff. Additionally, I was lifting heavy working on Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 and getting stronger
    -Since that summer I went back to consuming carbs. I did cut down the following year for a strongman a powerlifting comp. After that, my training has felt like I have been on a hamster wheel. I tore my patellar tendon at the end of 2018. In 2019 I then tore my pectoral tendon. Then this past year Covid hit and I was forced to do my best with working out outside all year…in Arizona’s hottest summer ever (more days over 110, 115+ than ever recorded)

I now own a home gym and over the past year I have been getting back at it. Slowly working on fixing my imbalances, and weak links due to my injuries. Although I had been getting stronger again I still had a little extra pudge I could get rid of (Although I didn’t NEED to). So I agreed to do some weight loss comp in solidarity with my wife. I dilly dallied for a while then did a strict cut using the Velocity Diet (as mentioned above). During that cut I lost 17.3lbs, and now I am wanting to use this as a catalyst for me moving forward to getting back to where I was before.

So without further ado here is my plan moving forward

Current Body Stats
Taken from a Evolt Body Scanner on 7/1/2021
Sex: Male
Age: 28
Height and Weight: 6’1 219.6
LBM: 193
Body Fat Mass: 32.2
Body Fat Percentage: 14.3%
BMR: 2206

Current Dietary Strategy
I sat down and outlined the following strategy for this remaining year. Afterwards I plan to sit down and reassest. Of course, adjustments may be made along the way depending on the results that follow

  • My current goals are to lose more fat (want to be 11-10% BF), while maintaining my muscle. Potentially even building upon my strength
    -This week is a deload week for me. I normally take one every 4 weeks; however, due to the weight loss competition I went 6 weeks of moderate/heavy exercise straight. During this week I am easing into Keto, while maintaining IF (feeding window is between 2-10pm).
    —Calories: 2250
    — Protein: 225g
    —Carbs: 60-80g
    —Fat: 120-125g

  • After this week I plan to do a 2.5 day fast beginning Monday and ending when I eat Wednesday afternoon. I’ve never fasted before but wanted to experiement with it, hoping to “kickstart” my Keto diet. I think I will do a heavy workout Monday, Moderate workout Tuesday, and Wednesday I golf in a league.
    -After this Fasting “Kickstart” I plan to be very strict Keto. Keeping my calories around 2400cal, with Carbs under 5%. I will maintain that until a trip I have planned for August 6-10th. After that trip, I will go into a weird little cycle since I have another trip from Sept 4-11th. I plan to fast after both trips then maintain keto.

  • I plan to do a TKD diet. I plan to use my exogenous Ketones in the morning (as well as Yohimbine), then take both again plus BCAAs about 30min before my workout.
    -Once my trip in Septemebr is done, I have nothing else planned for the rest of the year. I will maintain strict Keto/IF from there and hopefully become more machine than man.

Current Training Strategy
For the rest of the year I plan to go back to my roots and follow a 5/3/1 template. It is something I have NEVER done before and I think it will work great for me in the long-run. It is a 2x2x2 template, and it goes like this: each training cycle is 6 weeks involving 2 heavy days, 2 light/mobility days, 2 conditioning days- done basically indefinitely. I have never done heavy lifting only 2x/week so this will be interesting to see what kind of strength/muscle gains I can make/maintain. On my light days I will be doing 3 exercises each 1x100 reps, then mobility work. On my conditioning days I will be doing various heavy loaded walks/rucks.
Current 1rm incase anyone is curious
-Squat: 470
-Bench: 325
-Deadlift: 555
-Overhead Press: 210
-Power Clean: 225

Conclusion/Questions
Well that is all I have to say. I hope to visit this thread again with any questions I may have, considering so many of you guys seem knowledgeable about all this (More than me). Before I go, I do have a few questions for anyone reading who may be able to help

  • Do you think me being so close to my BMR in Calorie goals (2400) will still allow me to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass?
    -How often should I fast? 2 out of the 3 times I am fasting I will be coming off a vacation. Would it be a great way to kickstart Ketosis again? Also, would it be better to not do a fast after my August vacation and maybe just wait until after the one in September?
    -Lastly, would taking about 30g of carbs (I was thinking OJ and powdered greens) after my workouts as well as my yohimbine, ketones, and BCAAs before be beneficial to me to maintain strength while hopefully losing fat?

Thank you to anyone who reads this and has any suggestions/takes on my workouts, and diet!
Josh

(Bob M) #2

So, is the goal of fasting after your trips to get you back into ketosis? That’s not a bad idea, and one I’ve used in the past. I almost always fast after vacation.

If you’re that strong and with that relatively low amount of muscle mass, fasting could be a challenge, however. Most of the people who are (typically, male,) muscular and lean don’t fast other than IF maybe 16:8. They tend not to fast more than that. Or at least the ones I see on Twitter don’t.

I would guess that 36 hours for you might be plenty. Maybe 2.5 days, max? And probably best done infrequently.

As for a TKD, what about a CKD? You’re quite strong. When I was younger, in my early 20s (now almost 60), I hit about what you’re doing, but it took me YEARS of training to get to that. (I MIGHT have gotten there faster, but I was in the Navy, which isn’t quite conducive to working out.)

While I often don’t advocate carbs, if you’re younger, in good health, and trying to build mass, I can see where carbs could be helpful. It seems logical to me, though, that you might need more than a TKD.

But that’s a tough call. I tried a TKD, eating around what you’re going to try, and I couldn’t tell much of a difference. But I tried a TKD after 6+ years low carb, and being older. (I have a theory that after 1,000 workouts or so, my body is very good at getting what it needs from low carb.)

And since I’m doing body weight exercises, it’s harder to gauge progress. If you’re going to a gym, you can easily see a weight change. But for what I do, I’ll often not see a change in number, but in difficulty.

For instance, I do pseudo-one-arm pushups with one arm on a ball. A few months ago, I had to keep the ball close to my body. Now, I put the ball away from my body. I also am doing true one arm pushups on the second step of a staircase, whereas I was doing them on the third step.

The “numbers” of pushups may have gone down, but the difficulty has gone up.

But most of this for me was done keto, not TKD. I may have improved under TKD too, but it was immediately apparent how helpful TKD was.

I do think you might need more carbs, though. Maybe a second meal of higher carbs on your heavy days? I say this because I assume with more muscle, more carbs can (and potentially should) be eaten.

Is there a keto gains forum somewhere? That might be helpful to visit, too.

As for your BMR question, I don’t know enough about that. You’re working out quite a bit, and it seems like a fine line between eating too little and “just enough” to power your exercise while also losing weight. If you’re tracking, see what happens and adjust from there.

My two cents.

#3

A brief fast to kickstart you into keto isn’t a bad idea but it isn’t necessary but if you haven’t fasted and want to give it a go than by all means!

I would suggest holding of on the IF at first. Let yourself enjoy keto and acclimate to the foods and most importantly become fat adapted. IF will be much easier once you are fat adapted and you will have an easier time sticking to your diet if you aren’t hungry.

I also have a theory that when we first go keto our bodies aren’t that efficient at it so we can get away with eating a lot of calories and still lose some weight. If you pull all the levers in the beginning you won’t have things to add when you stall. Your RMR is bound to fall over time but you can delay it somewhat if you don’t cut calories so much out of the gate.

The other issue with IF is that there still seems to be evidence the muscle protein synthesis is maximized if the muscles get hit with protein/aminos multiple times per day.

Using MCT oil pre workout is a good way to get a good boost of keto fuel pre-workout (just work up to a tablespoon or so slowly). Post-workout a whey protein isolate in some almond milk will have minimal carbs and should boost insulin to help get amino acids to your muscles. I don’t think you need the OJ at first. Adding carbs probably would maximize your gains but you might want to hold off until you are fat adapted before starting a TKD or CKD protocol.

(Josh Stanisch) #4

@ctviggen

Yessir, my plan to do the fasts was to get back into Ketosis. I am from WI, currently living in AZ and that trip in August is going to be a trip back home (first time in 2 years) so there will be Fish Frys, Fair Food, etc. :joy:
Can you explain what you mean by me being strong but having low muscle mass? You think it should be more? However, yes. After the 2.5 days big fast I plan to continue both a 16:8 IF schedule with my Keto foods. I certaintly don’t plan to attempt to go longer than those 2.5 days because I want to maintain muscle mass, boost HGH, and lose some belly fat. Thank you for letting me know based on my goals (which right now is to maintain muscle, lose fat, and potentially gain strength- which I know could/may not happen based on my high protein consumption) about not doing teh fasts too frequently.

In regards to CKD- have read the Anabolic Diet book which is essentialy CKD (Keto 6x/week then letting loose 1x/week). Although it did work a little bit with my IF last year before my wedding I never really got into Ketosis and my fat loss rate wasn’t substatial- it was also hard to workout outside when its 115+ and you have to workout at a park so lack of exercise could have played a part as well.

I like the diea of additional carbs after my heavy lifting days only. Maybe OJ, BCAAs, Ketones, Salt (30g Carbs) before and then my greens (20g Carbs) with protein afterwards? Do you think that could potentially knock me out of Ketosis though?
In regards to my BMR and caloric intake, I think I just need to play around with it and see how my workouts and body changes before I adjust that.

@fitbod

As I mentioned before I have done Keto in the past (granted it has been a few years), and last year I sort of dabbled in CKD. Thankfully I am one of those few people who understand hunger and won’t cheat on my diet despite it being uncomfortable at times. However, you think starting IF right away with Keto would be too much though?

Also, maybe I wasn’t super clear in my original post. I would like to maintain muscle, potentially build stregnth (this part is more because my training has switched focusing more on strength), but lose fat. Once I reach a certain BF% I want to begin increasing my calories again via keto to maintain or gain muscle mass, like I don’t want to be in a caloric deficit for forever. I am already at 14% so I don’t have THAT much to lose considering I am going for looks and not prepping for a Bodybuilding show.

Also, you think increasing my calories to 2600 (+400 above BMR) would still allow me to lose some fat while maintaining size and strength, then adjust depending on how my body reacts?

What about this as a stack? Yohimbine and Ketones in the morning, then before my workout I take BCAAs, Ketones, Salt, yohimbine. Afterwards I take OJ/greens (20-30g carbs). Would that be good to take advantage of the insulin spike? Why do you feel like I need to be more fat adapted before doing that- just curious.

Thank you both for taking the time to read and help answer my questions!
Josh

#5

Yohimbine can help with fat loss (a little) when fasted, but otherwise it really doesn’t do much. BCAAs are pointless if you’re getting in proper protein, any recovery stuff can go down with the OJ for the insulin spike but I definitely wouldn’t waste ketones there. Typically with TKD you do 20-30g Dextrose pre workout to run on that, I use Intracell 7, it’s pretty much the holy grail TKD pre-workout energy source, as well as electrolytes and EAAs.

I put on the most muscle in any one year when doing a 5/3/1 program, pretty sure that was the year my right AC joint decided we weren’t friends anymore. Rather than taking deloads so often have you considered periodizing your programs so that you don’t have to?

#6

As mentioned by @ctviggen I think you will find the Ketogains boards and FAQ to be very helpful:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index

(Josh Stanisch) #7

Hey dude, happy Monday

I really feel like I get a lot of Yohimbine. I’ve used it to go single digits before, but I totally understand what you mean. That’s why I figured if I am doing IF, I take half my dosage in the morning (fasted) and then before working out as well!

In regards to the BCAAs- I know they don’t do much if you are getting enough protein (which I obvisouly would be being on Keto), but I have a Amino Energy from Costco, so I use that as my pre-workout. The additional BCAAs are just a bonus cause honestly, the stuff is actually pretty strong!

And I think you misunderstood me. I plan to take Yohimbine, Ketones both fasted and before working out. Not after as a recovery tool. I typcially just drink water during my workouts, but I am open to trying new supps too so thank you for that endorsement of Intracell. I may have to try it depending on how this all goes.

I LOVE 5/3/1 programming. Used it for years. You mean periodizing it between strength vs hypertrophy sort of trianing? Yes I have but I still respond best just by taking a week off every couple. I don’t feel beat up then and I can just keep going. I still do workouts during my week off-just very dialed back.

(Josh Stanisch) #8

Thanks I will check this out too! As long as you don’t get info overload its never a bad thing to have too much info

#9

Hey Man,

Perhaps you’re set on keto, but maybe not with your comment about not having too much info.

Is the velocity diet still just the metabolic drive protein shakes for a month?

Check out Stan Efferding and his Vertical diet. It’s not necessarily keto, but you can modify it to be if you desire. He focuses on getting micronutrients as the foundation of diet, then basically utilizing white rice to go vertical to be able to consume more calories.

The gist is he relies on red ruminant animals for his protein source (mostly steak), eggs, dairy, and low fodmap veggies. This plan can be keto if you want, but then he also recommends potatoes for their potassium or white rice to get calories that mitigate GI distress.

His program also focuses on quality sleep, adequate electrolyte consumption, and three 10 minute walks each day after a meal to attenuate postprandial blood glucose excursions.

It’s a very practical approach to both power lifting and bodybuilding and has helped me with hypertrophy.

(Bob M) #10

That seems like a reasonable diet. I particularly like the potatoes and white rice, as these do seem to be good carb-loading foods, without a lot of fiber.