Bring back Baytowvin

(Wendy) #99

Ah! Thanks!
PS: I miss Baytowvin!

#100

You have a point but I’m going to play devil’s advocate here and say that they example you used is actually a good way to respond to someone in the sense that they offer their own experience as an example rather than telling them what to do. I do x when y happens.

Taking the context into account, a great response would be to say that that is useful to know but it can be so overwhelming for a newbie with so much varied information out there that maybe it would be better to stick to basic out the gate advice and save tweaking for later? Having said that, some newbies like to play around with all sorts of approaches right out the gate. Again, it feels very dictatorial to decide what information is given to Newbies and what is kept from them for their own good. It all feels very patronising to me.

It usually comes down to language and how you address a comment you feel is out of place that leads to a flare up.

At what point do they get to stand on their own two feet? Is there a set time frame? Again, who decides what is in and out info wise and what might have some use to someone?

Well this just isn’t true I’m afraid. Keto takes many shapes and forms and deciding what is and is not keto is not for one person or community to do. I hate it when someone tells me I should be eating less fat for example - what gives them the right to do that? But that philosophy works both ways. Who am I to tell someone else that eating lower fat is “not keto”?

I think an alternative name would be a good idea or you will just start an endless debate about what keto is ( :smiley: ) but great idea. We could create a new category, I am sure. Paging @richard - this would be OK right?

When you have been an admin for a while you lose the optimism that this might actually be effective for jerks! The problem is that people like you would read it, would remember it and would abide by it. Jerks would be unlikely to read it and wouldn’t give a toss about abiding by it. As I have mentioned before, we do discuss the potential banning of people being jerks. Maybe we are too lenient but that is something for the Dudes to decide. Personally, I am not a fan of being too trigger happy when it comes to getting rid of people who disagree with my keto ethos. What I am happier about is clamping down on the jerk element. Maybe we should start employing a 3 strikes and you get a warning/suspension and after that you are out - something like that? That relies on the community flagging jerks. I wouldn’t approve a flag that was a respectful disagreement though. What would I do if someone started talking about carb cycling in your new category and you flagged them? If we get the new category approved and you have set strict guidelines in the pinned post then I would probably approve the flag. There is an advantage with allowing such discussions to stand though and that is to illustrate the guidelines. Because many people don’t bother reading your pinned post, this is a good way to “educate” them! What you could do though is to shut down further discussion - so leave the original comment and your response but stop further discussion with something like “these kind of comments don’t belong in this category which abides by the guidelines set out in the pinned post etc.”

As far as jerks go, they can exist in both camps. Those enforcing what they see as the “rules” can be just as jerky as those challenging them. There are ways of debating without being a jerk. I do speak from experience on this and my own period of time as being jerky! I used to see red mist all the time in the old FB group and went on rampages against just such offenders to what I saw as keto all the time. I’m not proud of acting like that and have tried to learn from it and find ways of getting my message across in a less inflammatory manner. Hot head takes over sometimes of course but, in the main, I stay calm! One of the ways I did this was to avoid the groups of people who loved to troll so I do understand if you feel there are members who are behaving that way on the forum that are difficult to avoid. The best way to bring them to our attention is to flag jerky comments but to flag without emotion - so a heated disagreement that sticks to facts is not really jerk behaviour unless the context is inappropriate or you feel it is going on endlessly for no other reason than to be trolly.

I don’t know if that ramble was any use to you @Virginia? Hope so :slight_smile:

You can always tag someone specific if you think they can help like @siobhan for example - the lipid queen!

(Running from stupidity) #101

Got it. There’s no point having admins with regards information, only behaviour, because this is just a forum version of Twitter with “be nice” rules.

#102

Thank you for detailed info, Daisy. I think a couple of considerations not noted
may be generation and culture. We older folk need a little more direction
since the multitude of our adult lives various dietary approaches have
not worked, nor been biochemically correct for the body. In my years
there have been drastic changes (Keto a good example) and for someone
who has struggled with weight issues most of their adult years - skepticism
dominates and rules need to be clear. Cultural issues speak for themselves
and need to be considered - a global UN approach may not necessarily be the best.
The issue is complex, the problem common: get healthy, be happy and wholesome.
This notion that one can “mess around” with another’s direction and goals in this regard
(I think trolling is the word used) is down right unethical and immoral. But, I as a newbie,
really can not tell most of the time the trolls from the litigate contributors. So, for me,
rules and standards do mean something. Just my two cents and will now be inclined toward certain contributors and the rest…well, just ignore and may inadvertently miss some good
information. Keto roulette!

#103

Virginia, you got some great suggestions. Will certainly work
for me as well as compromise on the differences that can
confuse or alarm newbies.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #104

This is, at best, a complete misrepresentation of what you were told, and at worst, an outright lie. I should know, since I’m the one who told you (or at least told you most recently).

Among the things you were told by me:

Appreciate your efforts to educate, but if someone doesn’t want to hear what you have to say, it’s also OK to just let them be.

in response to a topic in which you were winding someone up who had specifically asked you to leave them alone, and things were simply escalating.

Also:

If [another member] posts something abusive, or that violates the community guidelines, flag it.

If [another member is] posting information that’s wrong, feel free to rebut.

I only ask that you try to avoid stirring the pot, or just poking at [another member] (or others). It just makes it harder on the mods, and while you may not mind pissing people off, we mind the resulting cleanup.

And:

But as I said, if you cannot resist responding to [another member], I’m saying be polite, and stick to the facts. Don’t be snarky, don’t provoke flame wars. Just be clear that the advice is not for everyone.

If you can’t reply without being snarky, don’t reply.

I cannot speak for all the admins, but in my communications with you I was quite clear, repeatedly, that you are welcome to be here, and to continue to reply and rebut arguments you disagree with. What you were asked to do was refrain from simply snarking at people and encouraging flame wars. I am not sure why you view this as an unreasonable request, but I will not abide myself or other admins being painted as uncaring and willing to allow newbies to be misled.

If you, or any other member, believe that the admins are doing a poor job, or have an issue with what any admin tells you, you should feel completely free to raise that issue with @carl and @richard, who run the site, and also, BTW, pay for it. Here’s @richard’s recent take on the tone we look for in KF:

I believe that my requests were consistent with those sentiments. And I will reiterate…I think a robust debate is helpful. But respectful debate isn’t calling someone else’s ideas bullshit. We all understand what it’s like to get frustrated. That’s a great time to walk away from the keyboard for a bit.

People don’t get banned or suspended from KF for posting bad ideas. Bad ideas get rebutted. If someone is outright trolling, or being abusive, they get walked. But silencing ideas we disagree with simply creates a keto version of the echo chamber that existed for CICO, etc.

And just so everyone is clear, I do not generally approve of sharing private conversations on the public forum, and in this case I am only sharing my portion of the conversation in order to correct the record, because what I said has been misrepresented.

#105

Is that a reply to my comment? If so, that is pretty out of order. I have added a fair amount of content to this forum and so have the other admins. I may not have much time to be as present as I was at the start but I have a great many other things to do in my spare time including putting a podcast out every week. You wonder why people react the way they do to you sometimes when you make comments like this.

One if the reasons for starting this forum was to make a community that ran itself much more than a Facebook group does. A community that doesn’t need babysitting to manage endless arguments. Facebook was a dreadful time drain for the admins and was a motivation for the change for the Dudes. The f forum is not a nanny state. It wasn’t ever intended to be a place with strict rules curtailing open discussion. It seems that you just want it to be something else, something other than it is and are getting ticked off because it isn’t. I suggest you take that up with the Dudes who have put in a ridiculous amount of time (and expense) to provide this place for you.

#106

Well yes, that is exactly how it works in an open forum - you take what works for you and ignore the rest. The rest may well be useful to someone else. I think many people forget that the forum is for everyone. I see people getting cross because they don’t like some of the replies to their question, forgetting that those replies might benefit someone else. When you post a question in a public place, you are doing so for the benefit of others as well as yourself. At least that is the way I have always seen it.

You can always structure your question to steer answers the way you would like - be more specific in what you are looking for. So instead of “where do I start?”, “I am the kind of person who needs clear, strict guidelines to stick to. What have you found works well for you? What would be the basic starting guidelines for someone like me?”. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying the above example is you but merely how you can help steer the comments the way you would like and that would benefit you the most.

(back and doublin' down) #107

This sounds like fasting. Are you doing Science only forums or supplementing with Social Media? Miss you. Come back soon. I’ll bring Tex-Mex.

(matt ) #108

Admins are not content cops and folks that want us to be would change their mind rather quickly if we removed content they posted or agreed with. No one told Baytovin to leave. He stepped back on his own and can post whenever he likes.

As far as the admins posting content, we were here before ANYONE else was and we posted a ton of stuff to get the forums rolling and then we stepped back to let the users make the forum what it is now. That was by design.

If you are flagged we look at that flag and have conversations on the admin board about how to deal with it.

If we see the same members involved in conversations that get off the rails we discuss that and often talk to all members involved regardless of which side of the conversation they are on.

If someone does keto differently than you there is no issue with that. You do you. If you disagree with the person you can engage in a civil conversation. Once it gets into ad hominem and personal attacks the conversation is useless and the admins are almost always called in to help.

We admin with a very light hand and will continue to do so. Those that want us to put on thumbs on certain ideas would not like that is it was their idea that was removed.

Take a chill everyone. Seriously.

#109

Sounds like we have reached an impasse. Whatever works for you is great. Guess it motivates me to seek a forum/media format that elicits more than a “feel good” response. Honest, forth right, respectful and light hearted feedback is outmost. Thank you for your attention in this matter.

#110

There will be just such topics available - use the search function. If there are no existing topics that hit the spot then create a new one. If you are suggesting that the entire forum should commit to one way of thinking when it comes to keto and enforce that then that ain’t gonna happen, sorry.

I agree. I am not sure what the impasse you mention is unless you are saying that the entire forum should stick to one way of doing keto only. What happens if that way is not your way? Am I completely missing your point here because I am struggling to understand what the issue is.

#111

The fellow who caused the most recent issues was not just saying another way of doing keto; he was recommending high carb. He wasn’t just a proponent of CICO; he said that fat people didn’t want to track calories because they wanted to be able to eat whatever they wanted. He didn’t just say that counting calories worked for him; he also said to someone who had followed CICO and still gained weight that her story was “not possible.” His sources were terrible by the standards of anyone who’s been in this space for any length of time.

And he was advising newbies.

This was very hard to watch.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #112

Again, in case my post above was not clear.

NONE of the admins are saying bad advice should be ignored. Anyone should feel free to rebut or counter a post that provides incorrect or bad advice.

The only thing being asked is that such replies or rebuttals should be fact-based, and should address the argument being made, not the person making it. Don’t snark at people. Don’t call names. Don’t stir up crap that the admins have to come along and clean up. All of those things only serve to make the forum more coarse and unpleasant for the majority of members, regardless of whether a subset enjoy the snark.

You have three admins on this topic who have provided clear guidance on this point. And @richard has also been pretty clear in the post I linked above in terms of the tone we aim for on the forums.

While we want everyone to feel welcome here, you have to be willing to abide by the community rules and guidelines. If those feel too restrictive for you, there are other Keto forums out there.

Sorry if we admins are seeming a little touchy about this, but most of you haven’t seen how much grief we put up with, and how difficult it is to keep everyone happy in a community of over 30,000 members. Scratch that, it’s impossible to keep everyone happy in a group of > 30,000. So we do the best we can, and part of how we do that is by asking for simple courtesy, respect, and civility. While the vast majority of members show these naturally, others seem to want to justify incivility on the basis of badthink on the part of the people they’re responding to. Not how it works.

Last, but not least, the admins aren’t perfect. We don’t pretend to be. We are capable of making mistakes, being inconsistent, or waking up on the wrong side of the bed. In other words, we’re human. But as @daisy noted, we do consistently discuss internally what should (or should not) be done when we see things flagged, and run things by one another to make sure our own biases aren’t clouding our judgment.

(Allie) #113

This thread is making me sad now, with all its disagreements. I value the opinions and knowledge of many members here and appreciate those who take the time to respond to posts that I either cannot answer, or just cannot be bothered responding to as it’s one of those topics that comes up with annoying frequency, as it’s these contributions that keep the forum going. Years ago on forums I used to argue and try to get my point across but now if I don’t agree with something, I’m inclined to mostly just ignore it. That said, if someone is giving out advice that is blatantly inaccurate and likely to add to the mass of confusion so many newcomers already feel, then they do need to be called out on it.

#114

@devhammer @Daisy

Apologies! I didn’t mean my post to sound critical, and in general I think the admins do a fantastic job (at least from my perspective) because the tone here is supportive and kind with lots of room for lively debate. I love it here!

I think that many of us felt that the guy who was recently kicked off was able to stay on for way too long spouting nonsense, and that there was a limit to what we could do in arguing with the content of his posts. I’m not suggesting that personal attacks are useful! They’re definitely not. We were just feeling stuck :frowning:

(Jane) #115

This will tempt @Baytowvin back! Under all that pico de gallo is fajita chicken and fajita beef. Plus 4 bacon-wrapped shrimp stuffed with peppers. Yum!!! Had this yesterday in Houston and it made 3 meals for me, even w/o the tortillas!

uhZNnbb.jpg2048×1536 1.24 MB

#116

The trouble is we are going round in circles here. I am not saying that I agree with what he said (whatever it was because I don’t have every detail) but that he is free to say it. The best way to deal with advice that you consider inappropriate is to say so in a non-inflammatory way. A simple rebuttal highlighting that the context is that of a newbie and that recommending things like higher carb is a sure fire way for most newbies to come unstuck would work fine. Acknowledging that this might be something that has worked for the commenter but that it is not something that will work for the majority at this stage also works. If the person in question keeps badgering the OP/you and continues to push such dubious advice then flag them. If that fails then message us.

If this is what he said then, yes, I would agree that is something that merits a firm rebuttal from an admin. Again, actually leaving the comment in place with the rebuttal also in place can be more effective than a deletion.

The trouble is that those who rebut such members can get such as jerkish. How should we deal with that? Is it OK for someone to be a jerk so long as they are on your side of the argument?

If there is something we have missed (it happens, although rarely if it has been flagged) then makes sure it has been flagged. If that fails, message one of the admins. If there is a member who is repeatedly interjecting with newbie posts with such advice do let us know and we can message them telling them to knock it off.

#117

Thank you, Daisy! (And @devhammer and other admins!).

(matt ) #118

To all members.

Please keep in mind that is is not possible for the admins to read every comment in every post so we rely a lot on members to help us out. If something is sideways or headed that way just flag it or PM us. We can agree with the flag, disagree with the flag, or ignore the flag. When we see a valid flag it puts someone on the admin radar. We walk a lot of spammers and a**sholes before the members even see any of their posts. The site is made in a way that makes that possible.

But as stated in other comments we cannot be 100% on 100% of the time. We need your help.